Growthtrac Community

[charity1]

My husband is very outgoing and friendly. Everybody loves him, especially women. I have never liked the fact that he hugs other women and that they hug him, but now because of the betrayal, I cringe every time it happens. We have discussed it, and I can tell he is trying to do better, but it is such an ingrained habit that I don't think he consciously thinks about it, he just does it. Also, most women now are so used to his hugs that they come directly to him to give him a hug. He doesn't always have a choice. As most of you know, we left our old church because of a physical relationship with a woman there. It just hit me the other day that at the new church he hugs or is hugged by virtually every female there. I don't hug other men and they don't hug me at church. We may pat each other on the shoulder or arm, or do a sort of distant, around the shoulder hug, but not a real hug. I had an experience one time at my work, several years ago, right after my dad had died, that made me reconsider the innocence of a hug. There is a man there who I have been friends with for many years. To tell you the truth, I feel like he has always been really attracted to me from things he says and how he acts. Anyway, he held his arms out to me for a hug on the day I came back from being out after my dad's death. I was feeling very sad from the death of my dad and thought this man was offering me compassion, which I desperately needed at the time, and I went into his arms. After all, we were friends. A little while later he came to me and said that "felt so good". I realized then, that wasn't good. That wasn't how I meant it. The next day, he came to me with open arms again, I just smiled, held my arm up, palm aimed at him, and said, "Yesterday I was feeling down and really needed a hug, but this can't become a habit." He took it in stride and has never offered to give me a full body hug since. I guess what I am trying to say here is, my husband can never be sure which women are "feeling good" about his hugs and which are doing it just as a friendly, hello gesture. Plus, how can I know he isn't "feeling good" from the hugs? Most people aren't going to tell you how the hug affects them. He hugs and is hugged by women both at work and at church. We were having lunch the other day, and a woman that he knows from work walked in, and she immediately came over and hugged him, cheek-to-cheek. Some people might say he is doing it in front of me, so it obviously doesn't mean anything, but the OW from the old church and he did a lot of things in front of me, and it obviously did mean something, so I don't know that I can tell the difference anymore. Obviously I don't want to change his personality. He is a fun, friendly person, but I also see the dangers more clearly now than I ever have. I have never told him the story about the man at work, but I just think there should definitely be boundaries in our marriage. After all, if he had had better boundaries before, the affair never would have happened. I had told him how it bothered me when the woman came up and hugged him at lunch, but then last Sunday, he gave a young woman there the same type hug. He even initiated it. It was someone we hadn't seen in quite a while, but she isn't a close, personal friend. Our preacher was standing there, and the preacher immediately looked at me. I think he even understood that it probably bothered me since he knows our situation and counseled my husband after the affair. Should I just let this go and try not to let it bother me, chalking it up to just his personality, or should I stress to him again how much this bothers me and insist on better boundaries? I don't want to be a nag, but I also don't want to put unnecessary temptation in our paths. What do you think? Am I just being paranoid?

[resecured]

(((((Charity)))))!

I can only let you know how I would feel if I were in your shoes I would explain to him how uncomfortable it makes you that he does this. Things are different now. You have every right to put up boundaries in your marriage. In fact, we must. Like you said, the OW and he may have just started out with a hug but then it progressed into something more.

Evidently your pastor was concerned about it bothering you. Maybe a good approach would be to talk to your husband and pastor together about this, since he counseled the both of you after the affair. Would he be willing to do this? You are not being paranoid, just concerned. There is a difference. I would definitely tell him about what had happened at work and how you had dealt with it. Also tell about how the man was affected by your innocent hug. He can make some changes in how he deals out hugs to women. Maybe just make the hugs a side hug, no cheek to cheek or full bodied hugs. A handshake would be even better. He can do that. He should do that for you.

These guys of ours need to do whatever it takes to make us feel like we are the only special women in their lives. They need to know boundaries. There is nothing wrong in that. Wouldn't he want you to curtail any close intimate type of hugging if you had been the one to have had the affair? I've found that if I talk of the vice versa of a situation, he can understand it a bit more.

Again, there is nothing wrong in asking him to change, if not stop, the huggings. He can still be a friendly, out-going type of guy without the hugging. The fact that it bothers you should signal to him that he needs to tone it down a bit. Tell him your concerns. Talk to him about it. Tell him that you understand that most likely the hugs are innocent enough but that he and the OW did things right in front of you too and had an affair.

Chairty, you need to talk to him. If you don't, this will fester inside of you. Things are still a bit fresh in your mind of what had happened. You are not asking him to change WHO he is, just WHAT he is doing. He can greet women without touching them and vice versa.

I also wanted to add that it's not nagging to protect your marriage. We need to be open and communicate with our husbands. I guess what would bother me is the fact that you did tell your husband that it had bothered you. Then a few days later, he initiated a hug? My guess would be that he doesn't get how much this is truly bothering you. Tell him, straight out. Fact to fact. Leave no doubt of how it is making you feel.

If he is not willing or he doesn't make an effort to change, I would make an appointment to see your pastor to discuss this issue. You have a right to feel secure about your husband when he is around other women. All of us on here understand that.

I'm praying for you and your husband. Sometimes they just need to understand that things are a bit different now. That they caused this uncertainty in us so they need to do whatever is necessary to ease our minds, period.

Love you, dear sister,

-RJ-

[j3anjean]

It's maybe too practical a suggestion-and perhaps it wouldn't provide you enough security with the contact but what about the side hug? Less contact. No one feels slighted. Your husband doesn't have to do full disclosure with everyone that comes towards him with their arms out but at the same time, there is less contact. On the Blog, Stuff Christians Like, John Acuff has a funny but true note about the Christian side hug.
http://stufffchristianslike.blogspot.com/2008/04/106-side-hug.html

[charity1]

RJ and Jeannie,
Thanks for your responses. I think I would be fine with the side hug with women he has known for years and that are close, personal friends, but I feel physical contact with any other women should be confined to handshakes. It's like once he meets a woman, the next time he sees her, he can hug her! I don't get that and never have. I have never liked the behavior but always managed to convince myself I was overreacting and never said anything. I can't see it as no big deal anymore, but now it has become a habit that is going to be hard for him to break. Obviously I don't expect him to give every woman that comes to him for a hug a speech about how he has boundaries and can't hug them, but I feel like there should be some way he can discourage all this physical contact, and he certainly shouldn't be initiating the hugs. Deep down I can't help thinking that if you never let a member of the opposite sex into your arms, you can't end up in bed with them! Did that sound paranoid or what, but it's true! I didn't see him hugging any women yesterday, so maybe last week was just a slip up. I plan to give it a little more time and prayer.

[rdsmith3]

Interestingly, our pastor concluded a series of sermons on marriage yesterday. He was discussing "fireproofing" or "affair-proffing" one's marriage. He gave examples of rules he has for himself, but did not say that everyone needed to do this. As a pastor, he wants to adhere to Ephesians 5:3, and there should not be even the appearance of immorality. He also wants to limit any chance for temptations. His rules and limits for himself include:

- No personal contact with people of the opposite sex, including hugs and kisses
- Will not ride in car alone with a person of the opposite sex who is not a relative
- Will not be in office alone with a person of the opposite sex who is not a relative
- Will not dine alone with a person of the opposite sex who is not a relative
- Will not watch R rated movies with strong sexual content

So, for him, he does not think it is appropriate to hug or kiss (on the cheek) a woman who is not his wife. I am not the touchy-feely sort of person, so this is not an area of struggle for me.

He urged every husband and wife to have rules or boundaries of some sort in our marriages, and to discuss them.


Ephesians 5:3

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

[charity1]

rdsmith3,
I whole heartedly agree with your pastor. I actually thought my husband and I had all these boundaries in place prior to the affair, except for the hugging one. I thought since he was hugging in front of me, it was innocent, but so much for that theory!! Obviously the chemistry and then the hugs made for a deadly combination which helped him forget the rest of the boundaries. I think I will print out your preacher's list and go over it with him. Obviously just talking hasn't made a big impression, maybe a visual reminder will stick with him. Thanks for the list and for helping me get past worrying about appearing paranoid. Our preacher is going to start a series on marriage soon, so maybe he will stress these points as well.

[resecured]

Rd,

I can understand fully where a pastor really needs to have boundaries. I remember hearing about a pastor having to step down because he was just seen in front of the church talking with a woman in her car. Rumors flew like wildfire, even though it was totally innocent. The damage had already been done throughout the community and his ministry was null and void. So very sad.

Our church is also staring the "Fireproof" sermons. I've got to say though that my h. and I are not to the point of doing the Love Dare. We have too much damage that needs to be repaired first. Still it will not hurt to hear what all of the sermons contain.

Charity -

Do you mind me asking what your husband has said about you being bothered about all the hugging? I ask because I'm having trouble with my h. concerning the "picture" (why it should bother me so, it was taken so long ago) and his taking me for granted already. It's almost as if he thinks I should already be totally healed about everything. That I should basically forget all that and see him for the man he is today. Wouldn't that be wonderful just to be able to forget? It bothers me that he seems to take for granted my fighting satan everyday for this marriage. That since he has turned his life around these past 2 1/2 years that I should just lay aside everything he did for the first 31 1/2 years. That covers almost most of my life.

I pray that your pastor will cover boundaries in a marriage. Since it didn't happen this past Sunday, maybe he has opened his eyes to the fact that it was not something he needed to be doing.

How do we handle it when our husband's start taking what we are doing for granted?

-RJ-

p.s. It just seems he is minimizing or putting the healing process on his timetable.

[charity1]

RJ,
Actually we didn't have a real conversation about the hugging. After we saw the woman he works with at lunch, and she came over and hugged him cheek-to-cheek. I didn't say anything right then, but that night it was still bothering me, and he can read my moods really well at this point. He asked me what was wrong. At first I said, "Nothing" like I used to do, and then realized that was wrong. Then I said, "Ok, there is something. It really bothers me when you hug other women." He looked startled, and said "Ok" and that was all that was said. This isn't unusual in our case. He is a man of very few words when he knows I'm upset about something. He definitely doesn't take me for granted though. He knows how badly he would have been hurt if I had been the one to have the affair and that he probably wouldn't have been able to forgive me like I have him. I don't foresee him taking me for granted any time soon, but we did have a discussion the other night after a TV show triggered some memories for me. I was crying. I asked him if he can really just forget the past, and he said yes. I told him that was great that I wished I could. I wasn't being sarcastic. That would be wonderful, but I think in their case this is something so embarrassing and painful that they just can't let themselves think about it. I had read somewhere where it is like any of us that try to forget our most embarrassing moments. We just don't go there. We don't want to remember them. My husband has always been great about denial of things he doesn't want to deal with. That is just him.

[resecured]

Charity,

Again, you have hit the nail on the head. I think the biggest reason he thinks I've really healed is the fact that I do not show my feelings outwardly. He hasn't even see me cry, let alone down on my knees to God for peace and comfort. He says that he does not take me for granted but that is the way it feels and sounds by his words. Sunday we had a conversation for around 3 hrs. (drat), he apologized for not always saying things right. That he has been focusing on work that is heavy right now. I told him that he needed to focus on our marriage as well, and he made the offhanded comment, "Well, it does pay the bills." I just said "Well, I guess that puts me in my place". I know he felt bad about the comment right after he said it, but then he doesn't say anything else. He has always just let it slide because I would always after a few days be ok. He feels like let it go for now and she will get over it and things will be good when she has a few days to quit being upset over what I've said. It's always been like that. I've always forgiven him, always. How in the world do I make him see that this is so different? I'm not the same woman that I use to be. That he has done so much damage to this marriage and to me that anything he says is much more harmful. It irks me that he will come home from work and say"How was your day? (in a cheery voice), then when I don't answer he just "doesn't go there". Like ok, maybe it's too early to approach her.

Also, with the picture, he said "Let's burn all the pictures during that time so you won't be bothered by them anymore". Sounds nice, huh? The real reason is because then I wouldn't become upset with him again. It's all about him. Everytime we would talk he would somehow bring it all back to him, like he is the true victim in all of this. He does understand that I am hurt and that he has damaged our marriage. He just fails to handle his wording right. He pops off with hurtful words. That is why I feel that he takes me so for granted. If he didn't, wouldn't he be more conscience of my feelings?

Right now, I don't even care to talk to him. After that 3 hour session, he still pops off something hurtful. Doesn't he get it that 2 1/ 2 years of being "pure" does not erase 31 1/2 years of deceit? I've tried to get him to see it all from my view point. He can't, not really. He doesn't have the gut wrenching pain, the feeling of utter betrayal of someone who was suppose to be your best friend, the destruction of the trust and love, that truly puts the finishing edges on it all. Until someone is betrayed they cannot fully understand. Anyway, that is where we are right now. He's waiting for the RJ of the past to be here again. The RJ of now is waiting for him to get that it is different and always will be. That he needs to change more of his past ways than just the immoral ways.

The truth is, it is easier to forget our own follies but it's not easy to forget other's follies done against us. Like you said, they just don't want to have to deal with what all they have done, so they don't think about it. Trouble is, if they don't think about it, how can they realize the extent of what it is they have done? How can they expect themselves to remember we are still very much in pain.

-RJ-

[charity1]

RJ,
I feel for you, I really do, but what I have finally come to grips with is that my husband will never react like I would react. I think we want them to say the things we would say, act the way we would act, and feel the way that we would feel if we were in their shoes, but they are men, and men are just very different from us. There is no way we can get rid of the memory of the past unless we get Alzheimer''s, and we certainly don't want that. We tend to become obsessed with our thoughts, where they are somehow able to push things out of their head that they don't want to remember or focus on. I have read a lot about the differences in men and women and am trying very hard to see life through my husband's eyes. It isn't easy, but I'm trying to understand. If you think about it, men talk to other men in a very harsh and hurtful way (or at least what we, as women, would consider harsh and hurtful), but they just laugh it off and go on. They comment on another man turning gray, gaining weight or balding. We women would never do that to each other. If a statement like that was made to us, we would be stinging for months or even years afterwards. They just aren't as sensitive or as sentimental as we are. I don't think they can comprehend being as sensitive as we are. I was reading something the other day that said we need to embrace our differences instead of fighting them, that God made us different to compliment each other. Looking back on raising our children, that was definitely true. I was caring and compassionate, but my husband was strong and firm. Our children needed both. I guess what I'm saying is, if we don't accept that our husbands will never think or act like us, we will make ourselves miserable. Sam has mentioned "Shattered Vows" on this forum a few times. I have just read it and highly recommend it to you. Maybe it could help you get past the wall that seems to have come up between you and your husband. I know during the time that I was really struggling with forgiving my husband, he would start to feel hopeless pretty quickly when he felt like he wasn't making any progress with me. I had to keep encouraging him and telling him that I loved him, but this was going to take time, not to give up. If we make our husbands feel like they can't win with us, they will eventually give up trying to please us. That is just their nature. I know they caused this, but they are past it now and want us to be too. I know what you mean about your husband avoiding you when he can tell you are upset, hoping it will blow over. I think that is a "survival" thing with men. I finally told my husband that when he can tell I am upset he needs to give me a hug. He said he didn't think I would want one. I told him that is exactly what I need. I needed to feel loved. That went totally against what he would want as a man. He says when he is upset, he just wants to be left alone. I have stressed to him that I need to be comforted when I am upset. It has taken almost two years on this, but now he just holds me when he knows I am upset or having triggers, and it does wonders. I don't know what you need, but whatever it is, you need to tell him, because more than likely whatever it is, it isn't something he would want. Whatever you want him to do about the pictures, just tell him. Tell him that just out of respect you need him to do whatever it is. I try very hard to not wear my feelings on my sleeve, but I still do at times. My husband has a way of saying things the wrong thing too, and he realizes it, which is why a lot of times, he just says nothing. I guess we need to appreciate the fact that when they are saying nothing they are trying not to cause any more damage. You would think after over 30 years of marriage this would be simpler, but it just isn't. We have to constantly work on making ourselves understood. We just have to try to figure out how to say what we want or need in a simple, non-demanding way, and in a way that doesn't make them feel incompetent.

[km]

I already know the hugging thing is a risky spot at the top of a slipppery slope, but if it weren't for that, I'd have no human contact at all. I just don't think I could hack life like that.

[rdsmith3]

RJ,
I feel for you, I really do, but what I have finally come to grips with is that my husband will never react like I would react. I think we want them to say the things we would say, act the way we would act, and feel the way that we would feel if we were in their shoes, but they are men, and men are just very different from us. There is no way we can get rid of the memory of the past unless we get Alzheimer''s, and we certainly don't want that. We tend to become obsessed with our thoughts, where they are somehow able to push things out of their head that they don't want to remember or focus on. I have read a lot about the differences in men and women and am trying very hard to see life through my husband's eyes. It isn't easy, but I'm trying to understand. If you think about it, men talk to other men in a very harsh and hurtful way (or at least what we, as women, would consider harsh and hurtful), but they just laugh it off and go on. They comment on another man turning gray, gaining weight or balding. We women would never do that to each other. If a statement like that was made to us, we would be stinging for months or even years afterwards. They just aren't as sensitive or as sentimental as we are. I don't think they can comprehend being as sensitive as we are.

Charity1

I think you are exactly right regarding the differences between men and women. We should not expect that our spouse will think the same way we do.

[resecured]

Charity,


Today was my husband's birthday. He knew the kids were coming over for a steak supper so he took off after 12:00 from work. I take care of my 4 month old grandson during the day so he came home to help get things ready. See, he'll do such as this, which I appreciate, but to just apologize or hug me after he's said offhanded remarks takes him awhile. I can read him like a glove. He hopes that he has softened me up with all this tonight. Later, he will ask me, "What's wrong? Can I help?", when he knows very well what is wrong. That irks me to no end. He will also say "That's not what I meant." Never fails. Only this time, that statement will not fly. It has no meaning other than what was said. I understand that our husbands think a certain way. Believe me, I know. It's just that he made this mess we are in, so he should be the one to go out of his way for me in the reacting department. He has trouble being reminded of his past. Who wouldn't. I need him to listen though, and not get into his "pity party" mode. He should have to bear certain consequences for his actions all those years.

Yes, we both need healing. The problem here is that he chose to wreck havoc on our marriage, so he should do whatever is in his power to help me heal. That to me, means listening and answering to best of his knowledge. Don't treat any new trigger that I need an answer for as unimportant. He can't totally heal until I get to the place where I feel secure. Reason being, it will all keep being brought up until I do. He, for some reason, thinks that by now 2 1/2 years into recovery that I should just be hunky-dory. That there should not be any new surprises, (triggers) to bother him/us.

I'm a different person now. It's hard for him to comprehend that fact. We are having to realign this marriage. I've been put out of my comfort zone, so now is his turn. Effort! That is what alot of this is about. He doesn't understand "yet", the level of effort he will have to put forth in this marriage. I've always made things so easy for him. I've always moddycoddled him. Look where it got me. So now, he needs to step up.

I really am not asking for too much here. Considering what he has done, just listening and encouragement is a small thing to ask for. I feel that I deserve his utmost respect now. He has disrespected me and our marriage for too long and too harshly. Things have changed and he just needs to understand that. Not being mean here, just determined to have a different type of marriage than the old one.

I can't be too concerned with his feelings right now. I'm dealing with too much of his past muck and still keeping it all secret from everyone. Isn't it crazy that I am protecting him, when he didn't/wouldn't protect me?

-RJ-

[km]

resecured - All people are diferent, by my wife (for example) has a real talent for finding the worst possible twist on other people's comments and assuming that this is what was meant.

Could you possibly do a little of the same? Or are you confident that he uses the "that's not what I meant" as a way to deny what he actually did mean when it turns out that what he said caused pain or problems?

[rdsmith3]

resecured - All people are diferent, by my wife (for example) has a real talent for finding the worst possible twist on other people's comments and assuming that this is what was meant.

Could you possibly do a little of the same? Or are you confident that he uses the "that's not what I meant" as a way to deny what he actually did mean when it turns out that what he said caused pain or problems?

I encounter the same thing. Sure, I say dumb things often. However, my wife will almost always infer that something is an attack on her. Every innocent comment becomes a condemnation of her, which is not what I intended.