Growthtrac Community

[rdsmith3]

I have posted here before that my wife grew up with an alcoholic father who had a strong personality/strong temper. He also did something inappropriate to her when she was an adolescent. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I know it was not intercourse. Whatever he did, she was tremendously affected by it, and still is. She has a very poor image of her body. She has also gained a little bit of weight recently, and is frustrated by her own inability to get back to exercising.

I have grown to realize more and more that her childhood abuse affects the intimacy in our marriage. From what I have read, it is important that I keep telling her that I love her and that I think she is beautiful. I really do think she is beautiful, and I tell her that often, but I always, always get a reaction of disgust from her. I have tried so many ways to connect with her. I have read the five love languages and tried to talk to her about it, but she insists that she does not fit into any one of those categories. (She is very closed down and protected.) I have asked her how I can show love to her, but she does not answer.

We another conflict last night and this morning that just leaves me shaking my head in bewilderment.

She was out last night at a banquet for her daughter's (my step-daughter) high school sports team. She went with her ex-husband, which is weird, but I understood that it is what her daughter wanted.

When she got home, she was undressing in our room as she was talking to me. Without thinking (ha) I made a comment like, "Oooh! You're wearing panty hose." She rarely wears skirts and panty hose, and I could not help but notice. She has nice legs, which I have told her many times, and they looked especially nice in the hose. She was highly offended by the remark, I guess because she perceived some sexual connotations.

She called me at work today to tell me that she knew we had different perspectives on this, and there was no sense talking about it. She then proceeded to talk about her opinion of how she felt violated by me, and how I was not respecting her wishes. What I heard is that I am a sexual "perpetrator" of some sort because I commented on her pantyhose.

I am just at a loss as to how to deal with her. She is sensitive to an extreme degree.

[km]

RD - I can certainly relate.

It reminds me of the old joke - "If a man speaks and his wife is not there to hear him, is he still wrong?"

[rdsmith3]

I've learned that if I comment on something above the neck -- your hair looks nice, or, you have pretty eyes -- then I am safe. However, if I say, "You look sexy in that skirt and boots," then I have crossed the imaginary line, and I am now some sort of pervert.

At work, I never, ever make any comments about the physical appearance of a woman because I would never want any issues related to harrassment. I'm not talking about sexist remarks, which would be inappropriate for a married man. I won't even say something like, "That color looks good on you."

I did not realize that I had to go through something similar at home, but it is even more complicated.

[km]

In theory, your wife is the only person you should be able to engage in racy/erotic banter with - and you ought to have that freedom. Your wife's individual issues make that not the case for you.

Unfortunately, until she decides that she wishes to undertake the work to fix herself, you are (figuratively but not literally) screwed.

[rdsmith3]

I really cannot figure her out. She will dress/undress in front of me, but I cannot look or touch. She will make racy comments, but gets offended when I do, although we used to engage in this sort of banter.

The other day we were unloading some groceries. She was putting some pears into a bowl. She said, "There are some nice pears in here." In my usual corny way I said, "I see a nice pair." She gave me a disgusted look and said, "How did I know you would say that."

[km]

Of course, if you were to do what she appears to want now (treating her like a sister) - she'd be mad about that too ("you don't love me anymore" or "you're not attracted to me anymore").

The old "lose-lose" scenario.

[veggiemelt]

I don't have worthwhile advice. But the exchange here is quite amusing. I said was taking a break again, but this might be worth sticking around for. It is highly educational as well as entertaining. Please continue>

[km]

Well, if our travails are entertaing to her Highness then that does serve to give meaning to our otherwise insignificant existences.

Thank you for validating my being, it is not for naught!

[veggiemelt]

Wow, you are on a roll tonight km. Hopefully, you will go easy on your wife when you get home.

[km]

I did a 12 hour day, saw her for 20 minutes while I packed, then left for a 3 hour drive to start a week's business trip (home for t-day weekend) and back on the road for 2 to I more weeks.

Yeah, I was in rare form earlier.

[rdsmith3]

I don't have worthwhile advice. But the exchange here is quite amusing. I said was taking a break again, but this might be worth sticking around for. It is highly educational as well as entertaining. Please continue>

I can see how it is amusing ... to someone else.

Seriously, though, it borders on being sadistic that she regularly will undress in front of me but the clear message is, "I am not sharing myself with you."

[veggiemelt]

I am sorry, I did not mean that I found your situations as something to be laughed at. I was simply refering to the back and forth between you and km. It was just the male exchange of verbage that was amusing to me. The humor was in the way you were talking about it, not the subject.

Look, I know you guys are both in a challenging situation. Not that a lot of guys don't deal with the same kind of issues - because I am sure they do - but you guys seem to have to endure the negitive and frustrating aspects of the female gender to an extreme degree - and the just really doesnt seem fair. rd - it comes across so clearly on this forum, that you love your wife so very much - and that this kind of behavior from her is not only frustrating but heartbreaking because you love her so much and she won't let you be close to her. I am certain that your wife is a very lucky woman.

I don't really know why we as women react the way that we do to comments or compliments. I know for myself - it is probably pretty inconsistant as to what my reaction will be. But I can tell you this - if it upsets me on occasion, it has nothing to do with my husband really - it has to do with how on that particular day I feel about myself. If I am not entirely pleased with the way my pants are fitting to day and my husband happens to slap me on the backside and say I have a sexy butt - I don't care how well intented it was - to me it is going to feel like a sarcastic judgement and it will probably either make me cry or make me mad. This is sad because I actually like it when he slaps me on the backside and if he stops for a week - I actually feel bad and get even more critical of myself. So I guess the answer is- ignore the reaction from her - and do whatever feels natural to you. Whatever she is saying to you in the moment is her own insecurity and even if she gets mad at you - in the long run you are helping her to become secure somehow.

We as women all have insecurities about our looks, it is just a really hard thing for us - especially when we have to start dealing with age. We know that you guys think it is silly or stupid, but think about it - guys are visual, they look at women and they judge them, sometimes even outloud in our presence. We will always wonder on some level what you see in us and as we age - it gets harder.

You guys, there isn't really an answer here - you are absolutely correct - there is no way to win, so don't look at it that way. Sexual play is good for a woman's self esteem, especially after we are married - however we are not always going to be able to play fair. So just stay on an even keel and let us flow in our own ups and downs. If you get in trouble - just say something like - "I'm sorry I just couldn't help myself" and let it go. Sometimes you just have to let us be mad. We take thing out of you that are not your fault - it is sad but true and it is no different then how guys will throw a cold tone to their wife after a bad day at work.

I know you guys are the exception to the rule here, but honestly - your wives have to give you guys some slack somewhere, if they don't want to sleep with you - they need to at least let you think about it.

Sorry if I made you guys mad.

[rdsmith3]

No, you didn't make me mad at all. I get why you were amused.

I was going down the path of continuing to tell her that I love her, that I think she is beautiful, and that I find her desirable. My perspective is that I should keep affirming her beauty and desirableness (if that is a word) because it might eventually help her low self esteem and poor body image. Her take is that I am violating her. I am not kidding -- she practically compared me to a rapist. She has a tough time shaking her perspective that men are perpetrators and women are victims.

So, again, why would a woman get undressed in front of the perpetrator?

[veggiemelt]

Because she is conflicted. She needs to still feel like a woman - a sexual being in the sexual sense - it is directly connected to our self esteem. But she has fear or anxiety blocking her ability to act on it and/ or her ability to accept and feel desirable. She is letting you have something, to see her - for what she gets from it herself - which is her ability to make you look. That is validating to her in some way. But she at the same time can't accept something about herself and therefore wants to take it back after she lets you see her.

I don't know in your wife's case where it comes from or what continues to drive her fear and insecurity. But as a female, I can completely relate to that feeling of - I do, but I don't. Or I thought I did, but now I wish I wouldn't have. It has very little to do with the person you are with and more to do with how we feel about ourselves. Women are in fact very sexually conflicted. We all are. I can't really explain it. But it is a constant battle we wage within ourselves. And if there is anything in our history that is somehow a violation of us - it just gets that much more complicated. All I can really say, is that what you are doing is not wrong, as long as there is respect in it - and you should not stop letting her know how you feel and all that you see in her. She just has to find a way to like herself a little more so she can accept it. The part of her that feels violated really doesn't have anything to do with you - it is a mistrust that she is just not able to conquer in herself or to deal with the multitute of confusing feelings resulting from it. We don't really like the fact that we are this complicated either if it makes you feel any better. If you think it is tough dealing with - "I do but I don't", try living with the conflict of those feelings every single day. It is not easy. And she really doesn't mean to make you crazy - honest she doesn't, we just can't help ourselves sometimes.

[km]

I've been fully in this situation for 20 plus years - I've developed the wry sense of humor about it (and my bemused tone doesn't come across clearly in print).

I usually have to keep the sarcastic tone (& intensity) under wraps - but I'm on the road, doing 12 plus hours days in high stress mode with no let up to come for weeks. So the unfiltered tone tends to seap through. I was enjoying the banter (while feeling RD's pain that mirrors my own of 10 or 15 years ago). And typing on the phone, I can't even use the smileys to tip my hand as to where I'm at