Growthtrac Community

[km]

veggeimelt - OK, then sit down with him and explain to him precisely what you've said here. You're good at giving it out straight. Do so with him. If he blows it later - so be it, you tried.

I really do wonder though. I hear all the time that women complain of passive men, and yet are utterly resistant to any leading on their man's part. I can plainly see that a lot of them are creating a large part of the passivity in their men, and are a large part of the problem in keeping him from changing.

[veggiemelt]

I agree on the tit for tat thing. It is a problem for a lot of us at some point or on certain things and I also agree with what rd said on another thread about one person needing to be right no matter what the cost. These behaviors are pointless. So, getting back to the original question posted here, this guy wants to reconnect with his wife, to move from a friendship into something more. I said that he needs to have the guts to make the first move, she is probably waiting for it, even though she might resist at first. What Sam said is right, people stop spending time together and doing fun things together, it is where this separation and loss of intimacy starts and why it keeps escalating.

I wrote about my friends as an example to show that doing nothing gets the relationship nowhere, and yet both people probably do want it to go somewhere. I think tough that when things really cool off, someone has to make the first move. It will rarely be the female because as women, we are not wired to want to make that advance. And once we have been in a situation where intimacy became our responsibility, we were the ones trying to keep it there and if we were failing - we are not going to want to be the first to go there, at least not in a way that is too forward. Women need to be pursued, it is what makes her feel loved. And that is sort of the point I am making. If he wants her to become affectionate and accepting of affection, then he needs to pursue it, that is what she needs. That right - she needs that. Women are built this way, when the guy doesn't pursue her, she just does not feel the same about herself or about him. If she has to be the one who pursues - it is just not going to do it for her, it puts her completely in the wrong place and it will just create another pattern that makes the whole "flavor" of their physical relationship feel - well just not right.

I don't care how many times the poor guy has been rejected, he has to pull himself together and get up the nerve to confidently bring her interest up. If he doesn't, it probably won't go anywhere. She needs to give as well, but her place is to openly recieve what he gives to her - not to go after him and ask affection. If she continues to turn him away, than she is in the wrong as well, but he can't do anything about that. She has to do that on her own. But if he wants to change anything, he needs to keep trying.

Go ahead and slam me guys if you want, but I am being honest here from a female perspective. You have to lead, God made you to lead - and if you don't, then she cannot submit.

[veggiemelt]

All right km, I will seriously consider that.

I do think there are alot of women who have "made" their men into wusses. That is another issue. But I am not one of those women, so I am not really about to say much about that. Controlling, overbearing women who want to wear the pants - scare the crap out of me. I can see why they would scare the crap out of a guy too. I would consider myself a strong woman, but I have no desire to wear the pants. I actually love my role as the supportive wife who stands by his side, I wouldn't want it any other way. But I will admit that there have been times when i stepped in a little because I wanted to help too much, or because i did not agree on principle with what he was doing. After the initial voicing of my opinion, I try to step away and let him make the choice for himself. I don't know how you deal with a women who always wants to be right or who wants to win - maybe some women just have a little more testosterone in their blood. I don't have the answer.

[km]

How about your friends - does she "want him to lead" while at the same time actively neutering him in his efforts to do so?

You need to talk to him about using (reclaiming?) his pair.

You have to give some thought to whether you also need to have a talk with her to enlighten her as to not undermining his efforts to lead.

If you sit back and do nothing, and they crash - you'll feel bad. If you try and they crash anyway, you at least did what you could.

[veggiemelt]

yes, she wants him to lead. She has asked on many occasions for him to take over or at least be a part of taking care of the finances. He does not want the responsibility. She has asked and tried to support him in leading in many other areas as well, he does not want the responsibility. She has stopped doing things, he does not take over. He is lazy, he wants a Mother, not a wife, he is a child and i do not blame her for being tired of it. And I actually did have conversations with him about this stuff, he started playing a feel sorry for me game and I just stepped away. I am not going to get into that, nor do I want him to start talking to me just because he wants someone to talk to and to feel sorry for him. he is looking for female companionship, but he does not have the guts to stand up and do what it takes to have that with his wife. On the other hand, because he is like this, the burden on her shoulders is huge. i see her getting more resentful all the time, it is not good.

The thing is, you can actually see that they care for one another, but she has tried and doesn't really know what to do. He says he tries, but it is half hearted and done with a pathetic attitude. he is like a beaten puppy, but he let it go there just as much as she did, from what I have seen, actually more. They need counseling, or something. Extended family is also a problem with them. When I look at people like this, I realize that my problems are so small and it makes me just love my husband that much more. I can say something, but their problems are probably a whole lot bigger than anything my words can mend. God does use us in other people's lives, as he does here. But we are all ultimately responsible for what we do with the knowledge or insight that we are given. I hate to see any marriage suffer or go bad, and I firmly believe with all my heart that everyone can change, but they have to want to, and they have to turn it over to God and let him work in their lives and in their hearts.

[SAM]

I have a question -

When we see Christian friends that are teetering, or walking straight toward the sin wall in their marriages - why do we hesitate as Christian brothers and sisters to speak truthfully in love about what we see? Why do we sometimes sit quietly and do nothing or sidestep the hard issues because they are uncomfortable? Or, hesitate to be bold with God's word? The pain of God's truthful words in scripture can hurt, but if the truthfulness of those words cause someone to repent and change their ways, isn't it a good thing? If they turn away, then it is a strong indication of the hardness of their hearts.

Reading through 1 Corinthians 5 Paul is pretty worked up about seeing immorality/sin going on within the church family, and turning the other way and pretending it's not happening. He says: And you're so above it all that it doesn't even faze you! Shouldn't this break your hearts? Shouldn't it bring you to your knees in tears? Shouldn't this person and their conduct be confronted and dealt with?

You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it in the authority of Jesus our Master. Assemble the community—I'll be present in spirit with you and our Master Jesus will be present in power. Hold this conduct up to public scrutiny. Let him defend it if he can! Your flip and callous arrogance in these things bothers me. You pass it off as a small thing, but it's anything but that.

Veggiemelt, you may have very well spoken boldy to these friends. You usually do with great wisdom. Have you encouraged your friends to go for counseling or a marriage seminar? To meet with their pastor and/or elders to discuss this issue in their marriage? To seek weekly accountability with a mentor couple?

I've spoken before about a situation I had in a woman's small group. In talking with the group facilitor (leader), she had refused her husband physical intimacy for over a year and felt perfectly justified. She told me she felt she was more of a facilitator, not a leader. To quote Mother Teresa - "If you influence, you lead." I told her I could not be in the group any longer if she was not living in the truth of what scripture calls her to do as a Christian wife. She could not influence other women about their marriages, if she was willfully choosing sinful selfishness in hers. I asked her what her husband would have to do, to where she would agree to be intimate with him again - she gave me 10 conditions! Most of which any man would not be capable of meeting on a consistent basis no matter how hard he tried. I expressed that her expectations were unrealistic. She told me, "He's a Christian husband and will always be faithful."
I expressed that she was terribly misguided to believe her husband was required to be celibate at her choosing. There was a lot more conversation beyond this.

I want you to know that I did not go into this discussion without weeks of prayer and seeking the wisdom of others who are older and wiser Christians than myself. I carefully chose scripture and words as guided by my elders. I did this at the risk of losing the friendship of this couple, and sought my husband's guidance since he stood the risk of losing the friendship of the husband. And, in the end, this couple shut us out of their lives. However, neither my husband or I have any doubt I was called to lovlingly speak the truth. She had a choice as to what she was going to do about it... and, unfortunately, she chose to keep walking in sinful selfishness.

[veggiemelt]

Ok...

[km]

veggiemelt - it sounds like you did make the effor. he may just be an unwitting kamikazee pilot with his marriage.


it is a pity that our churches have so woefully abdicated the responsibily to disciple & discipline its members. Our marriages are crippled (even through many have the 'happy facade' put up), divirce isrampant, and next to nothing goes on in the churches to really do anything concrete to stem the tide.

[SAM]

Wouldn't lie the entire blame in the lap of the church, although, a good portion of it does lie there because it is not a lifestyle or value that is lived out and breathed into the blood of the people and it's leaders. I've seen a lack of balance in serving the church to the detriment of a marriage, because it's God's work.

There is also a lot to be said about how we live out our Christianity in our marriages. If it's convenient it works, if not, I'll continue to do things my way rather than God's.

[veggiemelt]

I have one question, and then I want to address km's comment.

Is she with holding if he does not ask? I understand that if he were to make an effort and she were to dismiss it or reject it, then she would be wrong. But if he does nothing, I do not feel as a female that it is going to help the situation for her to take on yet another role that he should be playing the lead in. I think it has to come from him, and I think it is meant to come from him. She wants to resolve and she has told him that, I believe that opens the door. I think it is up to him now to walk through it. This being the case, I don't see it as her with holding anything. And I don't think it right for a woman to take on that role.
Am I wrong?

km - the sad thing about what you are saying is that there are so many times when even church ministers are aware of problems and yet they do nothing. I would think that if you saw these things in your church that you would at least start preaching on the subject. There are four marriages that i know of in this church that are on the rocks and there were two divorces in that church last year. This is a small town, so not much gets by anyone, it is pretty much public knowledge. I know that as members of a community or even in a social circle, private things come out, that is not always such a good thing and I don't think medling in other people's business especially when most of it is through gossip, is a good idea. However, when someone is confiding in you it is another matter and it is difficult when they are friends. A couple of years ago a couple of my friends who were having problems tried to start a bible study group. Most of us did go to the same church at the time. We were all having marital problems and had even asked the minister to offer something at church. He did start a study, but it was not about marriage. The study group fell through because none of our husbands were interested even though they are all friends.

Churches seem to want to talk only about certain things, anything that might actually apply to our personal lives seems to be off limits. I don't get that either. It is suppose to be a community, not a place to talk behind everyone's back. Divorce is becoming epidemic, and some churches seem to be stepping up - I have watch some of the sermons from Mills Hill church, they are amazing. But oddly, the older people in the congregation seem to want to steer clear of this stuff. It makes no sense to me. I know that the community I live in is alot of older people and most of the churches are supported financially by them. It seems that churches cater to the people who put the most money in the plate. It is frustrating and i don't think it is right. But there seems to be little that can be done about it.

Marriage issues should be addressed in church, everything we discuss on this forum should be addressed in church, but I think there are so many people who come to these forums because these issues are not addressed in most churches. I don't get it either.

[SAM]

If I ask my husband to pray with my children, and he doesn't, and I just let it slide to wait and to see if he will eventually respond or take a leadership role... and he doesn't, and I don't pray with them either... am I not responsible?

She can continue with the waiting game all she wants, but she is still responsible for the outcome of her marriage. And, that means taking the next step of making an appointment with their pastor, or a counselor whether he chooses to go with her or not . She can tell her husband she no longer chooses to play the waiting game with their physical, spiritual, a emotional intimacy and is seeking outside help for their marriage. She is responsible for the anger and resentment that is building in her heart toward her husband.

One thing I love about the new church my husband and I are attending is, 100% of the weekend offerings go back into the community. Offerings are not used to pay the pastor's salary or pay for a building. The pastors raise their own salaries as missionaries do, and there is core support and outside support for the administrative costs and rental of the high school where we hold services. This way the church does not cater to the people who put the money in the plate, but purely caters to the needy people in the community who need our help in these hard economic times. We are 8 months into this adventure, and it has been quite a ride! Our mission is to love God and people well. It was an unbelievable concept when we first heard it from the pastor over a year ago. It was crazy enough that we knew if God was involved, He would find a way to make it work - and so far, God's fingerprints have been evident.

[veggiemelt]

I understand what you are saying Sam. And what you suggested are good ideas. I also think your church sounds really cool. I would love to see something like that here.

I do still have that question though - as it pertains a little to my own relationship as well. I understand if there is no or very little physical contact, she has to take an active part in finding resolution - counseling, or something.

But in a marriage where there is physical activity, but where the husband does pursue sex, but it goes in drastic spurts for any number of reasons. Is a female with holding sex if he does not ask for it. In other words, if it goes for a couple of weeks and she knows that he is tired and has a lot on his mind so she tries to give him space and respect that he may not have a lot of attention to give her. And if she would like some attention, but wants to respect that he is under stress and will probably feel pressured if she were to approach him, so she does not - is that with holding? I do this - partly because I don't want to give off any signals that might make him feel pressured and partly because I don't want to feel ignored or rejected since i know that his mind is elsewhere, so I stay a little further away. I know that I sort of have this instinct in those times to play the seduction role, but it does not seem to be what he wants. I do think that God gave us that instinct to use seduction to free our husbands mind from worry and stress, but it doesn't really work, he seems to be annoyed by it and it makes me feel bad. So I have sort of come to the conclusion that the respectful thing to do for both him and myself - is to give him space.

But is that in fact with holding? The longer it is, the more I feel that I need for him to be the one that initiates, but often times, when it goes from being just a bad week to going on couple weeks, he seems to shy away from it even more. When ever it is like that, he will end up commenting on how long it has been and then say that I didn't want to. I sort of find that insulting, because he never asked or tried. How does that become my fault? Does it just get awkward after a certain amount of time for both men and women? It starts to feel that way to me and it does make me sort of start to shy away or distance myself because I'm not really sure what to do. I don't want him to feel pressured by my need for attention or affection when he is completely stressed out.

So, again - is it with holding if he doesn't ask?

[Searcher]

She knows for certain that I am not happy just living like friends,she knows that I am very much attracted to her but it doesn't seem to matter.Don't get me wrong she isn't cruel to me,she is kind toward me.It' just that's all there is no intimacy no touching,she doesn't change clothes in front of me.I don't know what is going on with her,I do know that there is not anyone else.She has just kind of shut down emotionally toward me,she is still very loving to our kids.I do not have the answers but I know the lord does.At this point I would rather have the part of her that I do then to not have her at all.I will not give up on her.

[SAM]

Veggiemelt - I had to sit on your question for while, pray, and read.

Do you think complacency and acceptance through non-pursuit and allowing a behavior to continue holds no accountability with God in marriage? There can be mental, emotional, and physical games that hurt your partner.

Satan comes up with every trick in the book to keep a couple apart. He has established this little dance between the two of you that keeps you apart and later adds a game of placing blame on the other. It becomes two things - mental and emotional withholding, with physical withholding being the outcome.

[km]

veggiemelt - I would have to say that if you make yourself available to him when he expresses any interest (and actively respond in a positive way to his advances) then you aren't withholding. You've said you've raised the desire to be closer on the emotional/communicative fronts, only to be rebuffed. That doesn't sound like withholding either. There is only so much one partner can do to express a desire to connect with a spouse who actively rejects conection and then twists the distance later to being the other's 'fault'. It isn't something one can rationally deal with - because it is irrational behavior on the spouse's part.