Growthtrac Community

[Loving-life]

I have read this whole post and I am sorry but I wish to voice my opinion.
I am not a religious person but am open to the idea's and concepts of it all.
I understand that it seems like a hard decision (the whole divorce vs. the bible).
But really, is it worth all the pain and suffering just to obey a rule?
Is all the heartache and put downs worth obeying God?
I don't understand how freeing your heart is a sin.
"my wife is repulsed at the thought of having sex with me." that should be a definite sign that your not in the right place and something HAS to been fixed. You don't deserve this, all three of you deserve to be loved!

[rdsmith3]

Welcome, loving-life.

This obeying God stuff seems crazy, doesn't it? I suppose I would have thought the same thing not so long ago.

The pain and suffering is difficult, and I cannot get through it without God's love. The way that God views love, and the way that God shows His love to us, is so different from our wordly view of love. The heartache and putdowns are more painful than you can ever know. I just endured another weekend of them.

But I know that God loves me, and He also loves my wife (and you, too). The pain that I inflict on God is much worse than anything I experience. God still loves me, and He wants me to show the same kind of love to others, but He knows it is difficult.

If I don't have love, I am nothing. If I don't have love, I gain nothing. You say you are not a religious person, but I encourage you to read the gospel of John. It talks about God's love for us, a love so great that He sent His only Son to die on our behalf, to make up for our sins.

While I am on this earth, He wants me to do my best to show love towards my wife (but I do it very imperfectly).

What is love? Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

loving-life, I hope that you, too, experience God's love.

Finally, for the record, divorce brings its own pain and suffering. It does not bring peace.

[km]

Loving-Life You would have a very valid, even completely compeling arguement there if:

A) this life here on Earth is all there is to our lives
B) our feelings were the best guide for what is ultimately good for us
C) the ways of the world were were what were ultimately good for us

As all 3 of those things are NOT true, your point is undermined. The narow path and journey to get to it and stay on it are very hard, and don't necessarily lead to a worldly concepts of 'being happy' and 'feeling good'. And those things are not supposed to be our ultimate goals (they may, or may not, come along with meeting our ultimate goals, but they are tangential to them).

[rdsmith3]

On the other hand, let him know that this aspect needs to be improved or you will not continue on in this marriage. If he doesn't work on it, and it is something that you need in your life, then divorce him. But do not wait for another man to come along before you do so.

Welcome, jmwc95.

Are you saying that a person should divorce his/her spouse on the basis that the spouse is not meeting a need?

[jmwc95]

Welcome, jmwc95.

Are you saying that a person should divorce his/her spouse on the basis that the spouse is not meeting a need?

I'm not saying they should (if they should, I would have gotten divorced a lot time ago, and my wife even had an affair), but there needs to be some threat of consequence for a spouse that is neglecting the other. Maybe not divorce, but possibly separation.

I am not going to condemn a person for divorcing when their spouse has neglected them. What is that person to do?

My intent was to get the original poster to stand up for herself without involving a third party and to work on her marriage. Telling her she has to stay married because a sexless marriage in not grounds for divorce will only lead her down a path of infidelity. Most spouses will not change without the threat of divorce, and unfortunately, most people only act on that threat once they have already found another person.

[rdsmith3]

"What is that person to do?" That is the dilemma we have been struggling with here. There are no easy answers.

I can understand your frustration, and I share it. The spouse whose sexual needs are not being met is more susceptible to temptation.

However, IMO one should not threaten divorce unless one is prepared to carry through with it. And one should not carry through with it unless there are valid, Biblical reasons and it is truly the last resort. Divorce is just not an easy solution to anything, and it brings a whole different set of problems with it.

[jmwc95]

"What is that person to do?" That is the dilemma we have been struggling with here. There are no easy answers.

I can understand your frustration, and I share it. The spouse whose sexual needs are not being met is more susceptible to temptation.

However, IMO one should not threaten divorce unless one is prepared to carry through with it. And one should not carry through with it unless there are valid, Biblical reasons and it is truly the last resort. Divorce is just not an easy solution to anything, and it brings a whole different set of problems with it.

I was just trying to get the original poster to come clean about her sudden desire to get a divorce after 18 years of not getting her sexual needs met. I think there is more involved than just those needs not being met.

As far as her marriage and divorce, I think it is something that should be discussed with her pastor and a christian counselor so she can know how to deal with this problem and still be right with God.

I wanted the original poster to know that staying with her husband or divorcing him is not a decision that has to be made today, and she can always revisit those choices again in the future once she and her husband have worked on their issues, which he has indicated that he is ready to do.

[rdsmith3]

What I did say in my original post is that the wall is too high now, and any desire to change is gone.

I just want to reiterate a comment I made earlier in this thread. In my opinion, pre-marital counseling needs to be taken far more seriously in the Christian community. I'm amazed how everyone wants to save my marriage, but no one said a word when I was dating or engaged.

Torn,

I agree completely that there is a huge need for pre-marital counseling. However, to be honest, I got married the first time at age 23 and I thought I knew a lot more than I know now. I might have dismissed a lot of what I heard and rationalized it away. Nevertheless, there is a real critical need for intense pre-marital counseling.

I pray that God would give you a desire to work on your marriage. I realize that is not necessarily what you want right now, but just maybe it is what He wants. Something to think about.

[Torn]

I pray that God would give you a desire to work on your marriage. I realize that is not necessarily what you want right now, but just maybe it is what He wants. Something to think about.

I've spent almost 20 years thinking about it. And praying about it - and working on it.

Again, these are not new issues. They've been problems since day one of my marriage.

I do appreciate your kind-heartedness, and I do appreciate your prayers, but two decades have passed with effort and prayer.

People comment a lot on 'throwing away marriages' after very little work, but when you stay and work on it, and then decide to leave, everyone is still unsatisfied. And if I stayed another 20 years with still no improvement, the majority would still encourage me to stay - cause how could I possibly walk away from 40 years with someone?

What would be most helpful for me is to be accepted where I am - instead of everyone wanting to change me.

[SAM]

Having once been in a "sexless" marriage by my own choosing, I can tell you the only way we
were able to get beyond it was with face-to-face communication with the help of a counselor.

HInts, innuendos, pleading and begging do not work. My husband had to get in my face
and tell me how deeply it hurt him, how he needed me, how he needed to love me... how much
he was tempted when I denied him.... he had to shake me and wake me up.

Medications or illness can affect desire in more ways than we consider. I only mention
this as it can be a cause for reduced libido. As my husband is getting older, and suffers
from the winter blues and lack of sunshine, I notice a difference in desire. Once spring
hits and sunshine returns with warmer days, I have a different man in the house.

Torn -
There is something I need to bring up, that I am concerned about for you.
Because of the pain in your marriage, it has led you to attach your heart to another - outside of your marriage.
Women seldom leave their marriages, unless they have an emotional attachment to go to.
It could be that you have chosen that emotional attachment to stop the hurt?
But, in some small way, has that choice not also caused a void in you with God?
It may seem like a tiny exit, a small step away from him... but it is not.
It erodes our hearts and our capacity to continue to love... unconditionally.

If your husband does a 360 degree turnaround, where will that leave you? Will your heart have the
capacity to love him again? I believe it will. However, in order for that to happen... all connections
to members of the opposite sex outside your marriage must end.

We all believe the grass will be greener... on the other side of our pain... that's not the case.
But God does his greatest work in us... when we allow him to walk with us - through it.

[jmwc95]

SAM,

I just saw the edit to your last post. I'm glad you broached this subject with Torn. Having gone through a sexless marriage as well as my wife's affair, I tend not to mince words.

[Torn]

Torn -
There is something I need to bring up, that I am concerned about for you.
Because of the pain in your marriage, it has led you to attach your heart to another - outside of your marriage.
Women seldom leave their marriages, unless they have an emotional attachment to go to.
It could be that you have chosen that emotional attachment to stop the hurt?
But, in some small way, has that choice not also caused a void in you with God?

Thank you, Sam. I appreciate your concern, and I do agree with some of what you've said. I'm on a couple of mid-life forums, and it's true that many women leave when there is someone to go to. But, there are also women who leave because they believe it's what's best for them. Of course, you don't hear much about women who are content with their decision to divorce, but they do exist. Through church, the internet, and the media, one is much more likely to hear about marriages that have been saved, and how you can save yours, too. From what I've read, statistically, men have much harder time adjusting to divorce and being alone than women.

The emotional attachment is most definitely a pleasant distraction. It's romantic, and, in all honesty, it's nice to feel that hormonal rush after so long of not feeling much of anything. And, you're right, it may not last, but he's not the reason for the choices I'm making. Being alone is okay. It doesn't scare me.

And, yes, my relationship with God has suffered, although, this began with several triggers about a year and a half ago and had nothing to do with an emotional affair. I do daily pray that God would open and close doors as He sees fit, that I would be the woman that He wants me to be, and that He would finish the work He's begun in me.

It erodes our hearts and our capacity to continue to love... unconditionally. It may seem like a tiny exit, a small step away from him... but it is not.

I would agree that, in terms of one's relationship with God, this is a very real and dangerous possibility. But, I also think that it's how we respond to difficulties and challenges that determines whether we grow, or whether we stall, or fall away. Those of us who've been in these marriages know that a lack of physical contact also erodes our hearts and our capacity to continue to love - and for me, it's been in a physical way. I do love my husband unconditionally, but I no longer wish to be his wife. This may sound like a contradiction to some, but loving unconditionally is to accept a person as they are - not as you hope or want them to be. I won't speak for anyone else, but I have not had a marriage. I have had a best friend and a partner. But, not a husband.

And it's been interesting, that the more people I talk to about my marriage, the message that comes across to me is that my only value and worth as a woman is to be found in the roles I fill. Whether it's 'marriage' or 'wife' or 'mother' - those have become bigger than me, and I end up feeling like a helpless hostage. But I'm not helpless - I do have the freedom to make choices.

If your husband does a 360 degree turnaround, where will that leave you?

This is what I think is most difficult for people to understand. Since I first began discussing these issues with my husband, he has done much work on himself - and I truly think that it's wonderful. But at our core, we are who we are, and my husband is passive. He may work on boundaries, or stating his preferences, or work out more, or buy new clothes. But he's still himself. Does that make sense? And I can appreciate him for who he is without being married to him.

Where will that leave me? This question is meant to play on my fears, but it doesn't. I'm 41, emotionally, mentally, and physically healthy, educated - and back in school, and financially sound. I'll be fine.

Will your heart have the capacity to love him again? I believe it will.

I've never stopped loving him. I simply don't want to be married to him anymore. And I understand and appreciate that you believe that we both can change in a ways that lead to a fulfilling marriage, but knowing what I know, I don't believe that will happen.

However, in order for that to happen... all connections to members of the opposite sex outside your marriage must end.

Yes, I do understand this. But my desire is not to improve my marriage.

We all believe the grass will be greener... on the other side of our pain... that's not the case.
But God does his greatest work in us... when we allow him to walk with us - through it.

Well, it's not really an issue of the grass being greener, or an elusive search for happiness, or letting go of one man in order to have a new, different one. I know that being whole is not found in any of these. It's about making choices. And there is never perfection - not in a fallen world. That's reality. Is there ever complete fulfillment when a person changes jobs? Or moves into a new neighborhood? Or changes schools? Does life ever radically change? Sometimes. But usually we simply adjust and take the good with the bad.

[jmwc95]

Why can't you end all contact with your affair partner first, and then make the decision to finally divorce your husband? Prove that it has nothing to do with the other man. Prove that you are fine being alone by yourself. Words are empty and meaningless, it's your actions that do the talking. Right now you are no different than any other woman who leaves their husband for another man. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man has a million excuses as to why their marriage will never recover. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man rewrites history to an extent to justify their actions and internalize their guilt. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man says the marriage was already over. It works the other way too. Look at Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. Brad Pitt says it was over before he and Angie hooked up. Apparently Jennifer Annisten didn't get the memo. Oh wait, there was no memo because they were still married. The bible is pretty clear on extramarital relationships. What will this teach your children? They will know that mommy left daddy for a man she met on the internet. It will come out. What will they think? The illusion that you and your husband will still be friends after you leave him for another man is a fantasy. He will resent you for breaking up his family. There will be no good outcome.

[Torn]

Thank you for taking a more gentle tone.

Why can't you end all contact with your affair partner first, and then make the decision to finally divorce your husband.
Prove that it has nothing to do with the other man. Prove that you are fine being alone by yourself.

If and when my husband and I divorce, I will be living alone. The OM lives, literally, on the other side of the world. My children are here, I go to school in the States - so here is where I'll be.

I've spent my entire life obsessing over the approval of others, and I no longer want to live with that fear of rejection hanging over my head. I have nothing to prove. I'm not seeking approval, blessings, or any sort of confirmation that the choices I make are acceptable to you or anyone else.

And the reality is that nothing I do would ever be to your satisfaction. It doesn't matter what the timeline looks like, or how many months I wait to do this, or that. You will continue to believe about me exactly what you wish. Trying to prove anything to you would be like venturing into a black hole - it's a waste of energy.

Words are empty and meaningless,

I respectfully disagree - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

Right now you are no different than any other woman who leaves their husband for another man. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man has a million excuses as to why their marriage will never recover. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man rewrites history to an extent to justify their actions and internalize their guilt. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man says the marriage was already over. It works the other way too.

I didn't say that I was different, but I've posted no excuses, and I've placed no blame. I haven't rewritten history, nor have I attempted to justified my actions. And my guilt is mine to deal with - it's between me and God. I'm making choices and decisions based on what I believe is best for me in my situation. I'm not asking you to agree.

You do tend to use lots of sweeping statements - every woman does this, every woman does that. Sorry, but it's kind of amusing. Every woman also cooks the meals, every woman does the laundry, every woman tends to the children, every woman takes care of the budget, every woman cleans the house, every woman buys the gifts, every woman puts up the decorations - and that's just in her own home. Women are indeed very busy creatures.

The bible is pretty clear on extramarital relationships.

Yes, your right.

What will this teach your children? They will know that mommy left daddy for a man she met on the internet. It will come out. What will they think?

In terms of divorce, I will share with my children what is appropriate for them to know. I wouldn't share private details about other people with my children anymore than I would tell them that their father and I have rarely been intimate during our marriage.

But, if others choose to gossip, then it is possible that they would hear all sorts of things. I only have control over my own thoughts, words, and behavior.

The illusion that you and your husband will still be friends after you leave him for another man is a fantasy. He will resent you for breaking up his family. There will be no good outcome.

As I've stated more than once, I'm not leaving my husband for another man, and I haven't created any illusions about being best friends after a divorce. Hopefully, he will behave in a way that's most beneficial for our children. His choices, reactions, resentments, etc. are not my responsibility.

Ok. So, I know where you stand on all this, and you know where I stand. I'm not going to continue going in circles with you about these issues. I'm done.

[SAM]

Ok. So, I know where you stand in all this, and you know where I stand. I'm not going to continue going in circles with you about these issues. I'm done.

Torn, I am curious. From your Christian brothers and sisters here on the boards, what were you expecting from us when you made your original post? Did you think you would get a green light from us that we would say, " You're right, you're justified in leaving your marriage?"

I think your mind was made up. But, I get the feeling there must be some nagging doubt about your decision, because you came here hoping to get some answers.

Just an observation.