Growthtrac Community

[SAM]

JMWC95 -

Right now you are no different than any other woman who leaves their husband for another man. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man has a million excuses as to why their marriage will never recover. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man rewrites history to an extent to justify their actions and internalize their guilt. Every woman that leaves their husband for another man says the marriage was already over.

Ouch! Every woman???

Brother, you are exhibiting some anger and bitterness here. I'm sorry if this is something you may have personally experienced in your life. Torn is right - there are some amazing sweeping generalizations here that are way off base and rather demoralizing to the women on the boards.

I think you get the jest that we are trying to provide loving guidance and advice on the boards. Yes, sometimes truthful nugdes need to be layed out there. However, I ask that you pray and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance before spewing insults.

[Torn]

Ok. So, I know where you stand in all this, and you know where I stand. I'm not going to continue going in circles with you about these issues. I'm done.

Torn, I am curious. From your Christian brothers and sisters here on the boards, what were you expecting from us when you made your original post? Did you think you would get a green light from us that we would say, " You're right, you're justified in leaving your marriage?"

I think your mind was made up. But, I get the feeling there must be some nagging doubt about your decision, because you came here hoping to get some answers.

Just an observation.

Well, my original post wasn't about divorce advice - or opinions on adultery. I asked if there were others in sexless marriages - others in the Christian community who could identify with what I've been going through. I wanted to feel less alone.

The majority of the thread has taken a totally different turn, as they often do.

[SAM]

True - they do

However, we are glad to have you with us. And, we have some new people on the boards... that
are learning the culture around here. So, I apologize if they have been a bit harsh.

There are some who are in sexless marriages here on the boards.
If you go back through this thread, you will find them.
And, if you go back and check older posts, you will see their stories.

I will continue to pray for you and your marriage. I am a firm believer that there is always
hope. And, I have seen great growth with God, in the people on the boards who are trusting
Him to change their situations. Little by little, they are seeing glimpses of change in
their spouse... and with the prayers of those here... when they are having tough days
they ask for us to lift them up and provide strength.

I pray that is something we can do for you.

P.S. -
Something I would like for you to contemplate.
I believe in spiritual sickness - a sickness that enters our souls when we choose to go our own way,
and live our lives in direct conflict with scripture. This applies in our wordly views of how we give
or don't give our bodies to our spouses. Maybe this is a place where your husband has been. Maybe
it is physical problem or hormonal. I only bring this up, because I didn't really see in your posts if
this is something you have explored with a doctor together. Men can have low testosterone levels.

Sicknesses of all kinds are part of this world - spiritual, physical, psychological,etc. - we suffer from it, and so do our spouses. Something to contemplate... we don't often think about what would happen in our marriages if our spouse
became so ill and could no longer have sex with us. I have a dear friend who is only 40 and has brain cancer.
Her heart is willing, but her body is not. Would we remain faithful, even if it meant we could not have intercourse for another 20 years?

[km]

As someone who has been (involuntarily) celibate for almost 20 years (around 16-18 years to be more precise - I try not to dwell to heavily on the precise timing), it is possible to remain faithful for long periods of time - even if one is really, really unhappy about being celibate.

I think I would find it a whole lot easier to deal with if it were a situation where her health prevented her from activity (there would be no anger/resentment/disappointment/rejection facets to it then).

[Torn]

Thank you very much, Sam! I appreciate your kindness and your prayers.

Something I would like for you to contemplate.
I believe in spiritual sickness - a sickness that enters our souls when we choose to go our own way,
and live our lives in direct conflict with scripture. This applies in our wordly views of how we give
or don't give our bodies to our spouses. Maybe this is a place where your husband has been. Maybe
it is physical problem or hormonal. I only bring this up, because I didn't really see in your posts if
this is something you have explored with a doctor together. Men can have low testosterone levels.

Sicknesses of all kinds are part of this world - spiritual, physical, psychological,etc. - we suffer from it, and so do our spouses. Something to contemplate... we don't often think about what would happen in our marriages if our spouse
became so ill and could no longer have sex with us. I have a dear friend who is only 40 and has brain cancer.
Her heart is willing, but her body is not. Would we remain faithful, even if it meant we could not have intercourse for another 20 years?

Yes, I absolutely agree that spiritual sickness is a very real issue.

My husband and I are both continually working through problems relating to how we were raised and fear of intimacy. And I believe it's much more mental than physical. I think the hardest part for us is that we've never had a healthy sexual relationship. Some people have spoken to me about trying to rekindle the original passion, but that never existed. That's not blaming or rewriting history, it's simply stating the truth. I honestly can't remember if we had sex on our honeymoon.

Perhaps a physical impairment would be easier to deal with, but I could be wrong. The pastor who baptized me when I first became a Christian had a wife who suffered for a very long time from a crippling disease. After she died, it became public that he had been having an affair with his secretary for almost a decade, and he's now married to her.

[rdsmith3]

Torn,

You have probably read too many books to remember, but I just want to suggest one called The Fear Factor by Wayne Mack

http://www.amazon.com/Fear-Factor-What-Satan-Doesnt/dp/1563220822/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232558170&sr=1-1

[Torn]

Thank you for the book suggestion!

I just finished reading through the sexual intimacy section and realized I should've posted there - I'm sorry.

[km]

Your situation presents a rather more stark mismatch than mine, but I also dealt with an inherent mismatch of drives (libidos, whatever you want to call it). I started out as an 'at least once a day' guy and she was always more of a 'maybe once a month' gal (although we've both gone down some as to our desire schedules - we're still similarly off kilter). I was always been rather wild and adventuresome, she's always been decidedly staid and prim. It really does poison the entire relationship.

[Torn]

I was always been rather wild and adventuresome, she's always been decidedly staid and prim. It really does poison the entire relationship.

I'm more like you, but, unfortunately, I don't even know my husband's preferences.

In the past, when we would talk and try to sort through these issues, I would encourage him, and I continually thought the conversations went so well. But, he recently told me that he thought I was always just telling him what he wanted to hear.

[km]

To the minimal extent to which I've been able to broach the topic over the many years, I've been rather thoroughly rebuffed - nothing hopeful at all and the feeling that wanting anything more/beyond what she would tolerate doing made me a disgusting pervert (from an objective averages sort of standpoint, I am decidedly mainstream, or even somewhat less, in everything except desired frequency, on which I acknowledge being high and would be happy to reasonably compromise on).

I don't really have any understanding of her preferences either (unless 'I don't want to' qualifies as a general preference).

[jmwc95]

Infidelity:
The Lessons Children Learn
by Jennifer Harley Chalmers, Ph.D.

When a parent has an affair what lessons are being taught to the children? What rules of life are being learned?

Julie was a happy-go-lucky eight-year old. She was at the top of her 3rd grade class, loved playing with her friends, riding her bike, and drawing. Her parents loved her and she loved them.

One day after school mom introduced Julie to two girls who were close to Julie's age. Mom said that she was taking care of them for a friend named Josh. Julie enjoyed playing with the girls and looked forward to them coming again.

In fact they would come over quite often with their dad. But it was only when Julie's dad was out of town. Sometimes Josh stayed late -- long after Julie had gone to sleep.

One day dad came home from his trip. As he was hugging Julie he asked, "How is my princess? What did you do while I was away?" Julie started telling him about the new puppy that "Uncle Josh" brought to the house. Dad knew that mom had been helping someone with child care, but when he heard it was "Uncle Josh" he became a little suspicious.

"How often do you see Uncle Josh?" he asked. With a smile Julie said, "Oh, he comes over every day to help mom when you're gone." Mom looked at Julie with a stern face. But Julie didn't understand why she was becoming upset. Her dad started asking her mom questions and their voices became louder and louder. Julie was sent to her room.

As Julie listened outside, her door she heard her mom say, "Josh is just a friend. Aren't I allowed to have friends. Why do you have to be so jealous? Don't you trust me?" Julie finally heard her mom say that she would never see Josh again if that's what her dad really wanted.

After a couple days, mom and dad started talking to each other and mom and dad seemed happy again. They all returned to their routine of life and Julie started to forget about that horrible night.

But the next time dad went on a trip, mom did not keep her promise. She told Julie that the babysitter will be taking care of her that night. But mom wouldn't tell Julie where she was going. As mom left the house she saw Josh help mom into his car. "Why is mom seeing Josh when she promised never to see him again?" Julie asked herself.

When dad returned, mom lied to him. When he asked her if she had seen Josh while he was gone she said, "No." But dad pursued the subject and continued to ask her what she did. Finally she said, "I can't take this invasion of privacy" and that her life was "none of his business." She got up, started to pack her suitcase and gave Julie a kiss with the promise to see her tomorrow. She left that night leaving Julie feeling abandoned by her mother.

Julie didn't understand what had happened. She thought it was her fault -- maybe she had done something to make mom leave and cause this terrible punishment. She cried inconsolably. Dad tried to soothe Julie but nothing helped. She cried herself to sleep.

The next morning Julie went to school but did not say a word. Her teacher asked what was wrong, but Julie wouldn't respond. Her eyes just filled with tears.

When Julie saw her mom she cried and pleaded for her to come home. Julie promised to clean her room every day and wash and dry the dishes. But nothing worked. Mom didn't come home.

After a month mom changed her mind. Julie was so excited when she heard the good news. But her happiness turned to despair when she was told that her mom had forced her dad to move away so she could come home.

Julie had come to trust and depend on her dad in the last month and appreciated him more than she ever had in the past. Now she was about to lose a parent she loved and trusted all over again.

These experiences were only the beginning for Julie. In the months to come mom and dad would unknowingly teach Julie more lessons about life.

Children learn from their parents. In fact parents are the most influential guides in a child's life. Many will see their mannerisms and phrases being used by their child. But parents are more than models for mannerisms and phrases. They are models for crucial aspects of life: a work ethic, intimate relationships, friendships, domestic skills, communication, and problem-solving skills. Lessons about life are being taught when a parent has an affair -- lessons that they usually don't want their child to learn.

The first lesson a child learns is,

How to deal with emotional pain.
Children whose parents are experiencing marital conflict feel many emotions -- guilt, confusion, loneliness, sadness, fear, worry, abandonment, and many other excruciating feelings. When a child is losing the security base of a strong marriage they are bombarded with pain.

So how is a child supposed to soothe their pain and the feeling of helplessness? And how does a child gain control in an uncontrollable situation? Out of the need to defend against these uncomfortable feelings comes a new rule about life --

If a problem arises it is better to deny that there is a problem than to face it and feel the pain.
Julie came to believe this rule. She would think,

"This is how married people lived. Nothing was wrong about this situation. There really isn't a problem here. Just look the other way."
A child can defend themselves from the bombardment of emotional pain through the defenses of denial and justification.

But this new rule did not help teach Julie how to solve crucial problems that would face her later in life. Instead of facing and solving those problems, she would deny their very existence and look the other way as it would grow and eventually overwhelm her.

Julie was also being taught a second lesson,

How to lie.
In order to maintain a secret second life, wayward spouses need to keep up the deceit. After Julie started living with her mom, she was asked not to talk to dad about Josh. She was further instructed to tell dad that she hadn't seen him. Mom explained that it is better that dad just doesn't know "because we don't want to make him upset." Julie remembered how upset dad was when he found out about Josh. She didn't want him to get angry at mom. So with this newly learned habit of lying for mom, came a second rule about life --

Lying is allowed if it spares another from pain or spares yourself from punishment.
Another rule from this lesson on deceit is that

Lying is allowed when it protects your privacy. Everyone has a right to privacy in their life, even if it involves hurting people behind their back.
Julie was told over and over that it was not dad's business to know what mom does. This was meant to justify the fact that mom was lying to dad. Although Julie's mom was a very honest and open person before the affair, mom became quite an expert at deceit and privacy. Julie was watching her model every step of the way.

A third crucial lesson is,

How to be thoughtless -- doing what you please regardless of how it affects other people.
Julie would learn how to take advantage of her friends and family when there was something in it for her. She would learn how to disregard others' suffering because she had a right to enjoy life to the fullest. All wayward spouses hurt the people they care about the most. Wayward spouses rationalize that they had to look out for themselves which is why they developed the relationship outside of their marriage in the first place. Their actions seem to benefit themselves in the short term, but it has disastrous effects on members of their family.

Marital discord is hard enough on children. It undermines the basic security needed for them to learn and grow. But to add infidelity to a troubled marriage turns a problem into a disaster. Parents who have an affair are teaching their children very important rules that are likely to be followed for the rest of their lives. It ultimately not only undermines their marital relationships but it also seriously hurts their own chances for success in most other areas of life.

Parents have a responsibility to teach their children the importance of honesty and the importance of thoughtfulness -- considering other people's feeling when decisions are being made. To do otherwise is not only terribly irresponsible, but may tend to perpetuate the learning of these rules of deceit and thoughtlessness for generations to come.

But even after the mistake of an affair, it is possible to make a conscious choice to change the disastrous consequences. I have counseled many parents who could see what they were teaching their children by having an affair. It motivated them to end the affair and explain to their children how wrong they had been. Although it was extremely difficult and very humbling, they were not only able to save their marriage, but also able to correct the lessons they had taught their children.

They followed a step-by-step guide that is now available in the book I wrote with Dr. Harley, "Surviving an Affair" (Harley/Chalmers, Revell, 1998). They first took extraordinary precautions to separate from their lover. Then, with their spouse, they followed the Four Rules that Guide Marital Recovery. As they followed this plan and modeled new behaviors they started to teach new lessons:

How to solve conflict through negotiation;

How to be open and honest about every part of life;

How to protect their spouse from their own thoughtless behaviors; and

How to be an expert at caring for their spouse.
A person involved in an affair, whether is it secret or not, must take a hard look at the messages they are sending their children. Are they seeing mom and dad living secret lives where privacy and lying are the norm, making choices that are thoughtless to their spouse, and accepting infidelity because it looks out for #1? Or are they seeing mom and dad spending time to love and care for each other, protecting each other from painful behaviors, being honest, working out conflicts together, and modeling faithfulness because it protects loved ones?

What lessons are you teaching your children? Are you protecting your marriage from infidelity? Are you making sure that your children will not learn the unwanted lessons of denial, deceit, and disregard for others?

Children can learn unwanted lessons from an unfaithful parent. But these lessons can be changed. A wayward spouse can decide to model new behaviors and teach new lessons. Think about it -- it could be the greatest gift you will ever give to your children.


Dr. Chalmers is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist and the co-author of "Surviving an Affair" (Harley/Chalmers, Revell, 1998).

[charity1]

Torn,

People comment a lot on 'throwing away marriages' after very little work, but when you stay and work on it, and then decide to leave, everyone is still unsatisfied. And if I stayed another 20 years with still no improvement, the majority would still encourage me to stay - cause how could I possibly walk away from 40 years with someone?

What would be most helpful for me is to be accepted where I am - instead of everyone wanting to change me

The fact that you have come to a Christian-based forum means that we aren't going to accept where you are because we know that with faith and patience you don't have to stay where you are. Many of us on here are living proof of that. We have been betrayed by our spouses but through drawing closer to God, counseling, communicating with our spouses and lots and lots of prayer, we have made it through the fire. Most of us thought it would be easier just to walk away, but we chose to stay and fight, and it has been well worth our efforts. If you read the Bible, you will find that every Bible personality went through trials and tribulations. Our life on this earth isn't about being happy. It is about being holy. It's about trusting God and being faithful no matter what life (or the devil) throws at us. Ecclessiastes 12:13 says that the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep His commandments. God intended one man for one woman for life. That is His commandment. I am not here to judge you, but the fact that you said you and your husband have both been involved in pornography makes me wonder if that might not have a lot to do with the problems of intimacy in your marriage. Real life just doesn't measure up to a fantasy life. The man you are communicating with is also part of a fantasy life. My advice to you would be to stop communicating with the other man, immerse yourself in God's word, then pray like you've never prayed before. Believe that God can and will heal your marriage. If we pray doubting, we can't expect Him to answer. For years I wasn't really interested in sex. I never withheld it from my husband, but I wasn't really that interested either. I felt like he just used me for his own pleasure. I didn't think he could care less whether I was enjoying it or not. That was a misconception on my part that took years to figure out. Like you and your husband, we had discussions, but we never got to the root of the problem. We just both walked away feeling frustrated. I also had some underlying resentment toward my husband because of some problems we had early on in our marriage that I couldn't get past. That resentment kept me from wanting to get "too close" to him. I loved him, but I also deep down resented him. I prayed and prayed that I could enjoy sex. I envied the way he seemed to enjoy it so much. It wasn't until he betrayed me and we knew that our marriage was in serious trouble that we really began to communicate and finally got to the root of our problems. I had to develop my relationship and fully depend on God for things to change in my life. I don't believe you would be on a Christian-based forum if you weren't looking for help. You don't want to divorce, you want your marriage to work. There is not a perfect man out there, so you might as well focus on the one you have and go from there. I have never been one who felt like counseling was necessary. I thought that as long as a person had the Bible and a relationship with God, they could get through things on their own, but when the man I trusted and loved most in this world cheated on me, I found that I needed another Christian to talk to. I thought I was the perfect wife because I was a friend to my husband and always provided for him physically, but come to find out, he felt like I didn't desire him and that made him feel like less of a man. We get so bogged down in our head, and the devil becomes so active in pointing out all the negatives in our lives, that we need someone to emphasize the positives and to make us see reality. If your husband has been your friend all these years, that is worth a lot in and of itself. If he had just wanted sex all these years but not shown you any attention or friendship, you would feel used and worthless as a woman and still wouldn't be happy. We all want to feel loved, cherished, admired and desired. My guess is your husband has a pornograhy problem and needs help with that in order to enjoy a real relationship. I am not a psychiatrist, so I may be wrong, but I believe that is where I would start. Both of you need to seek counseling. If he won't go, then you need to go without him. Make sure your counselor is a Christian. Even though you don't want to make your marriage work right now, God wants it to work, and your children need it to work, so give it a shot. Read your Bible, pray without doubting, seek counseling, attend worship services regularly and become active in your Church. You will be amazed. Just remember that a day with God is as a thousand years, so what seems like a long time to us isn't long at all for God. My husband and I were married 30 years before things did a complete turn around. Overall I thought we had a good marriage. We did everything together, we had sex regularly, we attended worship services regularly. From all outward appearances we had the perfect marriage, but inwardly we both had issues we needed to work on together. I had some misconceptions about him, and he had some about me. We had to work through those. Our perceptions aren't necessarily based on truths. In spite of the adultery, my husband and I are closer than we've ever been and love and appreciate each other more than we ever have, and by the way, I overcame my previous resentment and now thoroughly enjoy sex. I still hurt from the betrayal and wish we could have gotten where we are today without it, but we can't undo the past, we can only improve our future. I am still amazed I have been able to forgive him for the adultery, I never thought that was possible either. Truly nothing is impossible with God. I'm living proof of that. I'm praying for you. Please don't give up. Be the kind of wife God intended you to be no matter what your husband does or doesn't do. In the end you won't have to answer for your husband's actions, but you will have to answer for your own.

[SweetBride202]

If you stay single and you don't want to get married it seems like your life is useless because you don't know whats really the true meaning of marriage.
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