Growthtrac Community

[Æ]

I wanted to drop a few thoughts I had on some of the various topics I've surveyed before I posted my first.

I didn't grow up in a real Christian setting. Although my Mom (divorced parents btw) claimed to believe in God, the term "God" was extremely IMPERSONAL and some humongous force you just deal with but never really talk about -- like gravity.

When I say there weren't any churches around, I am not joshing. I grew up in Italy and lived there until just shy of 18. Much like Europe, it too is a country with a million church "buildings" but no "church". Not that I saw. I would be one of 300 or 400 people at any given time admiring the lovely sculptures, frescoes, and other artsy stuff... while 3 or 4 may actually be "worshipping". I'm not even sure what worshipping is but I'll get to that later.

I had heard of these odd, peculiar things called "youth groups" and churches where people actually WANT to go and can actually MAKE friends. But like the unicorn, I thought that was a bit of a myth.

When I came back to the states I wanted to seek some of these myths out. 1989-90 was a strange period where I fell in love, liked church, got "saved", had kids, got married, baptized, became disenchanted with the whole church thing -- not necessarily in the proper order.

For the next 16 years I have run the full course of jumping from church to church. Partly due to moving and partly because I lost interest. Sunday School (or Small Groups) became more of a waste of time mainly due to cliques, boredom, frustration, stress, depression, etc. I found more peace away from a church than in one. I have never been one to connect easily to people, in fact I usually disconnect for a variety of reasons.

Now, I have no idea who goes to what denomination and that is frankly none of my business.

Perhaps this forum is sick and tired of the sick and tired. I certainly don't ask for a pity party or anything. Just some hard answers to hard questions that frankly no church has adequately answered.

#1 on my hot issue is people who force their kids "at gunpoint" to attend church. I'm sorry but I don't buy it. My wife has family who attend a very STRICT, fundamentalist type church that have rules all the way down to the type of clothing. Their kids, sad to say, eventually had enough of the pressure and some rebelled... bad.
No one on my side of the family ever forced, cooerced, or even HINTED at the suggestion that I should go to church. Usually the response goes "Oh, that's nice". And they all claim to be Christian. It's been said once (on the radio I think) that no one actually crawls out of bed and suddenly decides "I think I'll go to church."

Well, I am one. My wife was raised in a church home, and somehow she saw fit to break away because of the recent "pushiness" there, I guess. I try not to bring up "church" with her because it too has been such a sore spot. Now you would think after 16 years of nearly zero church exposure that our marriage and kids would be an absolute train wreck.

(Surprisingly, no. Marriage has been real good to me and so have the kids. In fact, I am almost ashamed to say it's been too easy. )

I know one of you (or all of you) are going to say I'm missing the point of the church. I don't expect you to say anything different than what I've already heard.

By the way, if I haven't mentioned... I have to work nights and early mornings -- graveyard, that is... and that inclues Sat. Night -> Sun. Morning. If I do get off in time (by 8:00 a.m. usually) to go to a service I'm usually dressed in jeans and a semi-decent shirt, and tired beyond belief. Everyone else is still asleep at the house. So when I go, it's by myself since I seem to be the only one who thinks there might still be something to this church thing.

Lately I have found church to be largely impotent, dead, apathetic, and one big social club -- at least in 2006. It's this great big building that can house up to 5,000 people. It's very nice, it could rival a 5-star hotel, it is well known, and it seems to offer something for everyone.

So can malls. And there is a shocking similarity to it. Handshakes and greetings are no different than at a Wal-Mart. Many a small group I've attended where people flock around "the new guy" like flies on a carcass and then flow back to their respective "sub-groups". To any new member it can be a bit overwhelming and confusing. For someone like me who craves legitimacy and *, it is a living nightmare.

And then there's the service. If I had a remote I would fast forward through all the mindlessly uninspiring unappealing music, get to the sermon and call it a day. I understand I would get comments if I said I listened to Van Halen or Def Leppard or some other rock band that would drive many of you nuts. I haven't listened to a lot of music nor watched a lot of TV in a long time. Mainly, it's all old hat and nothing new under the sun and all that. But when I see Christianity common garden-variety "suggestion" or "alternative" is to music and TV... frankly I wonder how anyone is drawn to church. Simply put, Christian music sucks and when the subject of Christian Rock comes up you could probably guess why it isn't featured on stage at the highest majority of modern American churches.

Believe it or not, I did "drag" my family to service one time -- it was a contemporary service. Out of a capacity 1,500 audiotorium I think I counted maybe twenty -- not including the 6 I brought with me, to be fair. The service started out with a procession of 10 consecutive "praise and worship" songs and we were asked to stand the whole time. It may have been 40-45 minutes, it seemed like an eternity. And we stuck it out the whole time. Now I ask you, was that a worshipful attitude? I actually apologized to my family for making them endure all that and that was the last time we as a family went to a service. That was 2 years ago.

I don't know what kick you get out of church. It seems to be a fun place for kids to go. Our church has something called "Toon Town" for the kids which mixes puppet shows with Bible stuff and it sounds all really cool. The next stage is the teen building where they have pool, foosball, * games. It seems to be the most crowdest place in the whole building (which is as big as a mall), but after you turn 18 it becomes more like cold french fries and eventually the "small groups" become less lively and more donut oriented and more prayers for Aunt Bertha's hip-replacement and complaining about the kids danged "rock-n-roll" music.

Frankly, I don't fault the kids who drop church like a bad habit after college. I've gone on by myself to another church in town and yeah it hurts that the family doesn't want to come. It's an endless cycle of "well I don't know anyone, it's boring, the Bible is boring, it takes forever!". It's taken me a long time for an interest in anything Christian related to rekindle and I can't promise it'll blow out as easily as a newborn flame can on a windy day. I have maybe one good friend at the church and he happens to be one of the sub-pastors. That's about it. And when we talk it's usually only through e-mail or at church -- if I can make it.

It seems to me that Jesus and his disciples are supposed to be the model for the small group. If so, I think they had a lot more interaction and "iron sharpening iron" than just once a Sunday. I don't know how a Sunday School group should function, I'm still in the research mode. But if the best one church can offer is meet once a week in a classroom setting (YAWN) and basically just vanish from existence for another 163 hours... forget it. The ineffective prayer circles, the wasting gas to and from, the surface level "relationships" where the deepest we go is "looks like rain today", the countless songs, the kids screaming "I DOH WANNA GO!!!"

I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of church anymore. It amazes me how we hear of millions in China, Africa, India, Siberia, etc. are flocking to start churches here and there and we can't seem to get it right anymore. There might be a few of you who bleed church, community, and so on. Congrats, you are part of a RARE breed in America.

In a day where I am reminded that the second coming looms very close on the horizon, I feel kind of left out with nothing to plug into. It's shut up, stand up, sing when we tell you to, sit back down, stand up again, give your money (cheerfully I might add), and go home. If that is what you call encouragment and worship... well, frankly I am at a loss what to say to that except I'd rather be at home.

And yes I am still close to that point where I could give up on God and Church and go back to agnosticism. I'm tired of church hunting, tired of praying to blank walls, tired of these silly insistances that it's helpful. I don't know what I was getting into when I prayed for Jesus. Mainly I was praying to stay out of Hell, I don't know. I'm at the breaking point for sure. I do know if I'm having such a hard time with church, what kind of hypocrite would I be to expect my family to have a higher respect for this institution.

It's funny *(and sad)* that the only groups that invited me to church were Mormons and Jehovah's Witness. I knew enough to know not to be involved with those groups but to be told "just go find yourself a good bible-believing church and get rooted" as an alternative is really kind of irresponsible and unencouraging. It's also funny that when I explain to others at a small group that I've been up for 20 straight hours and I came straight from work -- I get a lot of shocked expressions like "and you came after all?".

This may be my one and only post here. I know I'll get slammed for being so critical of the church. Because I don't say where I am I cannot be accused of slandering this local church if I speak in generalities. I know I'll be accused of myself being the problem and not the church since that's the way church has operated for all these centuries and while it's not perfect, it still works. I can't logically prove to you in one post that I really don't have a place in church (or any church) and that it's near impossible to get my wife (who has been a church attender longer than I could speculate) to get on board. She seems to be of the opinion as well that there are no decent churches within a respectable radius of our house. You, too, may scoff at the notion. I did as well for a while but sadly I think she's right. I don't know what American outreach should look like. But from what I hear about Brazilian outreach or 3rd world Oppressive Regime outreach stories... I don't see much of an outreach around here.

The church is so enamored with reaching far and wide with long arms that they can't even scratch right under their very nose. I really could care less what the church does on a Sunday or Wednesday (the church I go to doesn't have those Wed. services). I want to know what's going on on a Monday or Friday or Thursday. The short answer? Nothing. Wait til next Sunday -- and don't forget the tithe! Satan must be leaning on pitchforks laughing his pointed tail off. And so goes America down the path of spiritual incompentency just like Europe.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just a spirtual hatchling at best.


Sincerely,
Æ

[webacus]

Welcome.

You covered much territory; I'll try to hit the highlights.

I don't fault you for being critical of "church".

I grew up in the Catholic Church and when it became irrelevant
(actually when my parents stopped making me go) I became
un-churched -- for the next 17 years.

Not picking on Catholics. At that point in my life any church
would have been irrelevant.

Fast forward... My wife and I were invited to a contemporary,
Bible-teaching, seeker sensitive church (probably a name you'd
recognize). It was relevant. We began attending and engaging
and we gave our lives to Jesus.

Over time we discovered our spiritual gifts; passionately served in ministries;
led small groups; and experienced life change.

That said, we know our church isn't perfect (and our church leaders
would admit that). My wife and I know that should something change
-- our geographic location, our passions, a calling from God --
we could find a church we'd be happy with. Even though it would
be tough-- we've been grounded here for 20+ years.

I know different churches appeal to different people.

I know solid Christians who don't like our church. That's okay.
What's important is they did find churches they can commit
to and engage with.

As I started reading your post I thought, "this guy needs to find
a new church." But it sounds like you gave that a try?
Maybe you can expand your search radius?

I hear you-- there are 'bad' churches out there.
Some churches are about rules, tradition, tithe,
and an inward focus.

Some churches give me a creepy feeling on my
first visit. (I have very refined church radar.)

There are churches that don't get the community thing;
or are inauthentic; or are mismanaged; or are simply
struggling with stuff.

And many 'Christian' churches that are about religion:
not a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

I think it's exciting you're developing a relationship
with the pastor at your church.

You've made some very accurate (and honest)
observations.

Except...

mindlessly uninspiring unappealing music...Christian music sucks

Man, what kinda music are you listening to?!

[Æ]

Thanks Web for the reply and thanks for going easy on me. I admit after I pressed the "SUBMIT" button I figured people would stay in line to throw virtual cyber-bibles at my head.

I find it odd that I have no desire to surf up porn or other "disgusting" websites and yet chose to come to a Christian site. How abnormal of me!

Yes I did the "new" church thing. And just speaking for me, there is a lot of potential in the church I go to if only another 30% to 40% would just "wake up". The tools and stuff are there, just that no one is using them.

I don't have a relationship with THE (Senior) pastor, just A (Sub-level) pastor. And I ended up striking this on the cusp of emailing him that I was done, I quit, I'm sick with the fill in the blank -ist church of insert locale here Yeah unfortunately this pastor is big enough and well known enough that hardly anyone gets to see him. In fact he pastors two churches so when he's done with his sermon he's off down the road to the next one and no one gets to know him at all.

Well, Sub-level pastor convinced me to give the place ONE MORE try. (Seems like that's all I ever do.) My wife, on the other hand, thinks this particular church is "all about the money, itself, prestige, bigness..." and so on. And so we dance around the issue, I don't want to come across as pushy despite my shaky "man-of-the-house" status and shellacking everyone with Joshua 24:15b. I call it good when I don't have to worry about whether or not the 4 kids are on drugs or if my wife is having an affair. I have never had to deal with this. It's not meant to brag, I have nothing to really brag about. Had my wife been on the same page with the necessity for A church (I no longer care which one as long as it's legit) this post thread would not exist.... not even in my head.

And you'd be surprised how many times I have heard "you know you bring up some good points". Sounds good to me, feels even better knowing that perhaps I'm not some Christian retard outthere. (I say that in tongue in cheek!!!!!) But ultimately I think I can come up with a bunch of good ideas with no power or drive to bring them into realization. Ironically, I called my ONE Christian friend, the sub-pastor. I only have ONE because that's about as big a circle I can muster for now. Remember when I said nothing goes on at church on a Tuesday?

The whole staff is in Dallas... for a Staff "Retreat"! Not that it's bad. But I find it odd that while they are stategizing and plotting and scheming to better minister to.... uh..... oh let's just say.... me!..... I'm calling him and he's in Dallas.
(Hint: I'm not in Dallas.)

It makes for a fun discussion on the phone, seriously it does.

The reason I posted here in the first place is partly due to the vast research into article submitters that ... in short... beg and plead and fall just shy of DEMAND we come back to church and drag any available kids, relatives kicking and screaming. (It'll be an experience they'll never forget!). For the few who have easier times singing and dancing and doing whatever for Jesus, count thyselves blessed and rare.

I hope any past, present, future articles on this website or any other Christian website will remember my manifesto, tirade, whatever and also remember that I "may have a point". I do pray that my whole family will at least have interest sparked. I do not want to force. There are some things I just have to do as a Dad. I didn't have a church around growing up for it to be an option, let alone command. Not if you count an 800 year old naturally air conditioned tomb they call church. Yeah I knew it was Catholic back then. No one told me about church. Ever. And if I hadn't the sick desire to just show up one night without any knowledgable reasoning whatsoever just to see what's going on (and to find any hot girls)... I would have never met my wife. And that church was on the decline, just like many others we found that were plateauing or on the verge of leaving.

It's a fact that I try to remind her about sometimes.

I can honestly proclaim that I have more of a desire to do something for the church rather than the church do something for me. It's a fair trade off for me who hasn't tithed nor didn't know was supposed to tithe until many years after I was saved.

Worship or what I "see" as worship... that's still a big mystery to me. I am as close to selling out for God as I can be. I don't claim any idols, there's really nothing to prevent me from serving. But any sacrifice could affect the spiritual future of my wife. She loves the house, the neighborhood, our jobs, yes the TV, lots of things. Church & God is low on her priority. There are things in my way from Jesus that I can't just drop like an old shoe as hard as I pray for it. Paul lamented about wanting to do the things that right but can't and stopping from doing the evil things but can't.

It's the big difference between WILL NOT and CAN NOT. I hope others will take that into account before I am to be judged a heretic. I don't know what is keeping God or what I'm keeping from God to enact a total family revival. I know that's all I want from him, not the job, money, power, or even the good marriage. All of that is great, but I'm smart enough to agree it is not the end-all-be-all.

And yeah sometimes I think God is all about the tithe since much of the bible is written around it and doesn't care if my bills can't be paid. Call it pride, but I wasn't raised to ask for handouts if tithing would drive me broke. I can't muster that kind of blind faith.[/u]

[Æ]

Except...

Quote:
mindlessly uninspiring unappealing music...Christian music sucks
Man, what kinda music are you listening to?!

Let's start with the usual clutter on Contemporary Christian Radio..... Point of Grace, Chris Rice, Nicole Nordeman, Twyla Paris, Rebecca St. James and a bunch of others that sound the same. I'm sorry... I think they have a good talent, but it sucks. And I've seen enough to know those nice and shiny voices are a dime a dozen. If you can sing halfway decent in a church choir, you just might win a Dove. Fortunately for me, I can't carry a tune to save my life so the ears of the world are safe from my wrath. I've been told (by my wife) that my voice is one of the bowl judgements from Revelation.

I was afraid this would come up, and I would really offend someone's favorite artist.

Now... I do like Switchfoot and other bands. Here's the trick, unless it's a crossover hit like "Meant to Live" I will never hear it on AFR (American Family Radio) or others. It's Southern banjo gospel on the AM radio, the afore mentioned artists, whatever they play at church (which is essentially the same!), or bust. I've followed (or tried to follow until I get ill) Christian "popular" music for many many years. I've contacted DJ's, radio managers, pastors at church, and so on. I've pleaded my "case" and, once again, you'd be surprised at how many agree with me. Since I have no other alternative, I don't really like to listen to music anymore since one side is so evil and the other is like eating rice cakes.
All puff, supposed to be good for me, no taste whatsoever.

It's a controversial issue, is God Rock conforming to the ways of the world or a viable vehicle to reach the apathetic youth. Hey, I count myself as one and I'm almost 36. I just am able to spell a little better than Johnny plus I have been studying three languages just to fight the boredom.

[webacus]

I don't know what is keeping God or what I'm keeping from God to enact a total family revival. I know that's all I want from him, not the job, money, power, or even the good marriage. All of that is great, but I'm smart enough to agree it is not the end-all-be-all.

You have your priorities straight; sounds like you're stuck on the implementation. I can feel your passion.

This revival you speak of needs to come from within. God needs to grab you -- and your family -- and
let you relate to him first. And then find a church connection, relationships, and maybe even good music

Not that there's a cut-and-dry forumula. But I sense that
your focus needs to be on your personal relationship first.

How is your prayer life these days?

On the music deal, I guess that's all subjective. There is Christian music I don't like, and some I do.
(I like Switchfoot too.) I love your rice cake analogy by the way.

[SAM]

It all starts with you - not your family and it takes one person to make a change. I think you came to GT for a reason. My guess is one of two things:

1) Blow steam
2) Try and find some answers

Because there is so much steam being blown (that's good and really OK- I certainly don't mind and welcome it and it has brought a smile to my face) it's hard to pinpoint maybe five things that we could tackle together.

Can you make maybe five-ten specific points that are eating at you right now. Type them out 1,2,3 and let's dig into it from there.

[Æ]

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It all starts with you - not your family and it takes one person to make a change. I think you came to GT for a reason. My guess is one of two things:

1) Blow steam
2) Try and find some answers

Because there is so much steam being blown (that's good and really OK- I certainly don't mind and welcome it and it has brought a smile to my face) it's hard to pinpoint maybe five things that we could tackle together.

Can you make maybe five-ten specific points that are eating at you right now. Type them out 1,2,3 and let's dig into it from there.

Call me The Steaming Pot calling Mr. Kettle "BLACK" I guess. I apologize for my longwindedness, yeah I could've gone back edited and then REALLY EDITED but yeah I be ventin' a bit. I suppose yeah I showed up on GT for two reasons... 1) for GROWTH and 2) to stay on TRAC What a freaky concept.

Alright I'll play it your way...
1... Church is really kind of dull. Most churches have been wrapped up in so much tradition and protocol for so long that change either has to occur or people leave.

2... Small groups & Bible Studies have been downgraded to Tea & Crumpets and social gatherings. What happens to us who are very quiet, anti-social and don't have a good fit with any group? I was reading up on articles championing (or making a valiant effort) the cause for small groups and followed my here. I think article writers who don't leave a way to contact them, not allow us to "vent" and force us to just accept their point of view as it is is very irresponsible and just even more proves my point of how church works ... "come in, stand, sing, sit, stand, sing, sit, shut up, listen, listen more, stand, pray, sit, drop off your dough, and leave. (Stay for a donut if you want.)"

3... Music in church and on Ch-radio (and I trust we've all been to enough places to define the ballpark here) predominantly SUCKS. I've interviewed (ok, complained) enough people to know a lot don't care for the music neither but that's what the station managers or music directors want and they like to stick to a certain genre. Christian rock (and I do mean HARD rock -- P.O.D., Embodyment, Pillar...) is usually invisible and you have to dig hard to find it.
I really believe that the slow, rice cake, tear-jerking music is the only preferred type Christian leaders want their people to pony out the *** for. I know "to each his/her own" but I dare say there's a bit of the C-word Conspiracy going on.

3a... Forcing people to sing. And that's what it really boils down to, we are expected to perform certain actions all in the name of worship. I don't like singing, I can't explain it but it's just something I just can't do. But once again it's all a matter of conforming to the pack and so I (and many others) have to pretend to mouth it along Milli-Vanilli style. Even I know that's as fake as a Rolex in the Bronx.

And that brings up 3b.... Radio stations, DJ's, Music ministers who stop to remind us all how "great" the music. I can understand if they don't want to be totally honest, who wants to listen to music that even the pastors think is lame, but inspiring!!!!

4... Pastors (and yeah I'm going to get on them here) who grow churches so large they become so big and so far away, they become as distant as God. I mentioned our Sr. Pastor is one of those nationally known guys now. I didn't mention yet that we did go to one Sunday night service (it was Easter I believe) and we watched Sr. Pastor give his sermon from a big-screen transmitting from his OTHER church he pastors. My wife thought that was pretty bush league and only about 200 showed up that night.

5... Other experts who run around from show to show saying we should "fast" from this & that for 30 days, 40 days, and so on because the "research shows...". Hogwash, if I believed half the data I should already be divorced paying huge alimony, child support, high smoking crack, and in and out of jail. For the record, none of that has ever happened to me. Chalk several up for grace I guess.

6... Using Church-ese terminology over and over. How can I be expected to grow if I don't know half of what they're (and that includes Jesus) talking about? After how many years and bummed expressions in the pew do I have to endure before I finally "get it". I've read most of the Bible, I know quite a bit of the stories. Pastors, leaders, experts of the Christian faith... quit talking to me as if I have a theology doctorate and I should already know and agree in advance with your speech. I have a community college degree that I'm darn proud of, that's it... I'm smart but not THAT smart!

7.... Churches, quit letting kids, teens, and singles have ALL the fun. I've seen several church bulletins that focus emphasis on all these groups having a good time and soaking in the Word. Does the fun have to die or downgrade to "Coffee Talk" just because I got married and had a few kids? Mom took me out of church when I was 9, I don't know why. All I do know is I was having some degree of fun. When I came back many years later all of sudden this fun "age" is now boring adults. There is still a sizable group of adults who still enjoy playing Nintendo with the kids, Volleyball, laughing, cutting up, and whatever it was I missed out on while I was trapped in Europe.

8.... If I ever have to wear banker manager suit just to go to Church, just go ahead and toss me out in the parking lot and shoot me. Yes, I do shave and shower before going but ... a reminder.... I usually have little time from the end of work and the beginning of church... if I can make it. When I know I'm a bit grungy looking, I stay out in the foyer and watch it on the several TV's around the complex.
And strangely, I'm happier out there than with the masses inside around the altar.

9... Brings up #9, the altar call. I'm a bit nervous (ok petrified) to go up in my dingyness in front of thousands (yes I do mean thousands) bow down, force a prayer, and pretend those thousands aren't watching me. I honestly don't know if making prayers from a certain location matters, I don't know if a lot of things we have to do at church matter. I seriously doubt my presence there at all matters. One thing I won't do is be fake before God. I've done that enough for one life. And if the anxiety and shame in my attitude and/or appearance is too much for me to bear, I won't do it. Crowds + me = do not mix. I got a "C minus" in speech class in college. I call that a major miracle. I hated every minute of it but I was so glad it's over. You really want that kind of attitude from me and church?

10... Doubt in God's power. I know many will chomp at the bit on this one. I have chopped my prayer life down to one prayer and one prayer only. It's for my wife and kids to have interest in church again so that I won't be so alone there. And no I don't have quiet times, devotional times, I pray and read when I can. I have no set schedules at home or life except for when I go to work -- which is 10PM. So, no, I don't force my kids to do things they are not too sure about, like church. I think they've gotten enough bad reports from the both of us to be kind of resistant against it. It's a sick paradox... we know Christ died for the Church, but is this it? Is this all Church is, a bunch of singing or dancing and weeping and longwinded praying (like my posts aren't longwinded enough) and then we all go home and disappear from each other for 7 more days just to start the cycle again?

Many years ago I had high hopes for what I would experience around other Christians for the first time in several years. Turns out what I missed out was just for the teens and us adults proceed towards death like the Bataan Death March.

By the way... I may have a slight attitude problem....

[SAM]

Ok - thanks for doing that. It helps me see things a little more clearly.

#1 - I agree with you that church can be rather dull, if you are sitting in the wrong church. It's one of the reasons I left the last church I was going to. So, if the church you attend is dull, get motivated to find one you enjoy attending. It may take awhile, but there is one out there. I know because I found what I needed in the church I attend now. Find one that has midweek services that will feed into more than just once a week. There are churches that do have their doors open on weekdays.

#2 - You haven't found the right small group and I disagree with you that they are full of tea and crumpets - mine are filled with some great food and fellowship. Many of the stories about Jesus meeting with people had a lot to do with food and fellowship too. Sounds like you want meat and potatoes type of group, getting to the nitty gritty of growing your faith - if you don't like what is out there, then think about starting your own group. Or, start talking and spending time with some other men in the church and see if they feel the same way you do. You may be surprised that some may feel the same way. Have you actually ever participated in a men's group? In our community a bunch of guys meet for breakfast (food) at a restaurant and then they do some heavy digging into the bible, talk about life and marriage and they challenge each other in their relationships with Christ. Maybe that would be your cup of tea ?

#3 - I also love Christian rock, but I wouldn't want to listen to it every Sunday. I enjoy other genres of music as well and maybe you need to expand your horizons a bit? A good music ministry in a church will mix it up - mine certainly does. As for Christian radio - call in, voice your opinion, because it does count. Or, find another radio station - they are out there.

#3a - You don't have to sing, who told you that you had to?? Sometimes I just hum along. Seems like you're struggling with God right now. When you're heart condition is where it's at - it's rather hard to worship God...period. No matter what is being sung.

#4 - Again - change churches if you don't like the pastor or the venue. Churches grow for a reason, they are teaching people what they need to hear and challenging them toward a relationship with Jesus Christ. Or, they are speaking a message that makes the Bible relevant instead of boring. A church that isn' bringing new people through it's doors is a dead church.

#5 - There is a reason for fasting - which is in the bible. If you really want to know why, I'll explain it. Maybe having some time away from home in a quiet place where you can fast for 24-hours may do the heart, mind and body good. I know when I slow down and have no noise around me, it makes a huge difference in how I relate to God. It gives me time to speak to Him and to listen.

#6 - If you don't like what your pastor is preaching - let him know. Or, change churches.

#7 - Consider serving or becoming a leader in the kids ministry. You may find you have some fun. Ever think about not working the graveyard shift? When you take the focus off self and serve others, amazing things happen to the heart.

#8 - If you can't be comfortable and need to wear a suit, then find another church. I can wear blue jeans and a t-shirt if I want to church and no one would say a word.

#9 - The altar call - not my most comfortable moment either. But, if you've truly given your heart to Jesus Christ, why would you be going back down to the altar? I'm sure there are others who have just prayed in their seats. It's another reason I changed churches.

#10 - Why do you doubt God's power? You don't give any hints here.

#11 - I'll be straight honest and agree with you on the attitude problem...but it's one of the heart. The heart attitude could be rubbing off on the family too. And... it appears this bothers you.

#12 - Seems like it's OK to lump all churches, pastors and other Christians into a sweeping generalization of ignorant, money grabbing, cushy, gospel twisting, tea sipping, sweet music loving idiots. That's prejudical thinking and with that comes hatred that seeps into everything that you are. And... it will show up in other places in your life in how you relate to people and to your family.

#13 - Maybe wasting your money on a Christian counselor might be helpful in sorting all this junk out. Maybe things go a bit deeper in your life and your family that just being all out stinking mad at the church right now.

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1... Church is really kind of dull. Most churches have been wrapped up in...

Agree (some churches)

2... Small groups & Bible Studies have been downgraded ...

A generalized statement, but yes. I suppose I could find groups like that in my church too. Different strokes... There are many kinds of groups: interests, purposes, ages, couples, singles, etc. It's a matter of finding your group; with the right affinity and objectives.

3... Music in church and on Ch-radio predominantly SUCKS...

You know, I had that view before I became a Christian. I remember my wife (she became a believer before I did) trying to get me to listen to Amy Grant (Amy Grant is still not one of my favorites) and other artists and I wanted nothing to do with it.

But I think something 'clicked' soon after I became a believer. The lyrics held more meaning-- didn't sound as rice cake-like. Christian music is a form of prayer for me. Maybe becoming a Christian lowered my music standards

Now, there are plenty of Christian artists who I don't like, but I can't agree that all Christian music sucks...

Maybe you're listening for the wrong reasons? Have you ever loaded a CD in a quiet place, closed your eyes, listened, and focused on God?

4... Pastors ...

Yea, that's (one of the) the downside of mega-multi-site-churches. Either it's okay with you or it's not.

5... Other experts who run around from show to show saying we should "fast"...

See SAM's response. I haven't done much of this, but it's a spiritual discipline that does work for many people (and examples in the bible).

Now, if you're talking about a particular someone who's constantly drilling people on fasting, I might wonder about that...

6... Using Church-ese terminology over and over...

Been there. Again, it's the difference in churches. Some are doing their own thing, inwardly focused on those who already believe. Other churches are more user-friendly (seeker sensitive), helping people learn & grow.

7.... Churches, quit letting kids, teens, and singles have ALL the fun...

Again, a difference in churches. Our church -- with 100+ ministries, 1,000's of groups -- misses the boat on family & marriage. It's probably a priority-values-resources thing. But we're very strong in other areas that appeal to me.

8.... If I ever have to wear banker manager suit just to go to Church...

Our church is casual-- some where suits, some where shorts. It's a difference in churches.

9... Brings up #9, the altar call. I'm a bit nervous ...

If it bugs you, stay in your seat; take a pass.

10... Doubt in God's power...

I could see that coming, with the whole package of dissatisfaction with church, weak prayer life, etc.

I have chopped my prayer life down to one prayer and one prayer only. It's for my wife and kids to have interest in church again

A worthwhile prayer, my heart goes out to you on this one.

I don't force my kids to do things they are not too sure about, like church...

I agree with not forcing, but if they're ever gonna give church a try, it will be because of your example. It will be because of conversations & encouragement -- and sharing your faith -- from you.

we know Christ died for the Church, but is this it? Is this all Church is, a bunch of singing or dancing and weeping and longwinded praying and then we all go home and disappear from each other for 7 more days just to start the cycle again?

Not my kind of church.

• Maybe you could PM me and share your location and I can help with some church suggestions. The common thread here is church dissatisfaction. You shouldn't have to put up with that. There are churches out there that will meet your needs.

• Have you seen this? http://www.growthtrac.com/church/looking.php

• That said, you also need to look at yourself: will you ever be happy with a church? Do you have a chip on your shoulder that prevents you from engaging? Are you overly critical, anxious to find things you don't like? Are you willing to commit to finding & making time for good relationships? Are you open to learning and submitting to teaching and jump-starting your prayer life?

• How about a conversation with your pastor friend. See if he's open to meeting with you on a regular basiis. It can be informal, no agenda. Maybe a one-hour Starbucks once a week... And see what happens.

• I sense that your unchurched family takes a toll on your spiritual life. Maybe you need to make yourself the priority, make you spiritually stronger and then, more able to serve your family?

• And I'm sure it's harder to feel good about church when your family isn't involved. I know it's much easier for me to grow my spiritual life when my wife is onboard... That has to be painful for you.

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1. I have considered mid-week services. Very few do that and frankly sleep has to overrule that because of the job.

2. Some meat & potatoes is fine. Dinner at the table is usually no fun if no discussion is involved, just like little two-way discussion is involved in a small group. So yes I am leaning towards changing small groups, if not just out and out changing churches. This was discussed ad nauseum with the Asst. pastor.

3. I know a lot of your replies can be chalked up to "Quit yer damn whinin'!" like this one. All I will say is I've done all of the above for #3. And no there are no other Christian radio stations out there. I listen to Christian Talk mainly (Focus on the Family, AFR issues, etc., David Jeremiah) and usually shut it off in between. The headbanger within me can only expand so far.

3b. I won't question your diagnosis of my heart right away. Yes, there are heart issues as are with everyone. Really you are among the first to ever tell me singing was optional. When I go to a church, there is no Dummies Guide to Worshipping or How-To's plastered on the bulletins. I have to assume that's just the way it is and dare I complain... oh well?

4. Again I have taken that into account. It's a trade off between how good the pastor is (and make no mistake, he is good) vs. how reachable is he.

5. I have no comment as to fasting, except I doubt I've ever really been called to one as far as I know. There are things I used to do that I've been gradually putting behind me because I know now how useless those things are. Part of it is the music I used to hear. That's one example. Another is certain TV. I know when I hear the word "challenge" I think "empty dare". Usually the completion of any ""challenge" will invoke a certain level of pride -- which I question then the purpose of the fast or challenge.
But by all means feel free to explain on this. I am always open to teaching. Just not nagging.

6. Again I say it's not so much the pastor. However I have been warned in previous e-mails from other Christians that changing churches can have bad reprecussions if it's just based on a few whines and complaints. I told my friend the sub-pastor I would stick it out until I know for sure this isn't the place for me.

7. I have been considered to help out in some form of the kids ministry. I will give it a go, that's all I will say for now. And yes I do think about not working the graveyard shift, every day for the last 10 years and every day for the next 22 to come. It's not negotiable with my employer, and losing the house, cars, kids, family is never worth just up and quitting. Someone has to guard the walls at night so I figure that's my lot in life until I can find something better.

8. Good for us. That's the way it should be.

9. Altar calls aren't just for accepting Jesus. Many I've seen also involving some special prayer or need or something to confess. Either way, I stick in my seat.

10. This is tricky because it involves why my prayer life has suffered so. I suppose it seemed to me that prayer to me was just plea I conjured up in my head with the intention of sending it to God. You will have to forgive me if I explain that my faith in God has had some dips recently. Not that I doubt his power, but more so his care for me. It's extra hard for the fatherless to come to grips with this and I fear this will be a lifelong issue with me.

11. The rubbing off is coming from both of us unfortunately. One spouse figures sleeping in on Sunday is fine and dandy -- Church is now an afterthought. The other wants desperately to believe spending 3 hours in a church is somehow worth it despite every preconception and "prejudicial judgement" I may have harbored.

12. Sam I won't argue with you that I have held on to hatred for most of my 35 years. Some of them were from the results of bad actions by Christians. My case(s) are probably not as bad as you might think.

13. Sam, I can tell by this point you are fed up with me. All I have tried to be here is honest and to the point. That's it. No fluffing up, no patronizing, no lying, no deceit. There have been several requests on other threads for a lively discussion. I never hear anything about the faults of church because frankly no one brings them up, nor no one dares to bring them up. If I didn't love at least the idea of the church I would have said no to Jesus and be well on my way to burning in Hell forever.

Is that what you want? I do this so that when I go back and tell my family the reasons why they should (despite all the preconceptions), the chances of a positive outcome increase dramatically. And if I can get my family saved, then perhaps I can win a few co-workers and neighbors over. I have to know what my responsiblites as a Christian are, what I can and can't do, better... what are my "freedoms"?

As far as being a church leader, that is far down the path and I intend to carefully weigh every step I take even if it takes a lifetime. I'm concerned with your tone with reply #13 and a bit offended by the manner the words junk, waste, and stinking mad were presented. Then again that might not matter to you since I have a good feeling I stepped on a few of your toes with bringing up "tea & crumpets". Sorry, I meant to say "Coke & Donuts".

Nevertheless, I apologize for very little for what I have said. I do my best to speak true from the heart even if it has been based on bitterness for so long. I hope, however, I did it "my way" -- with class, tactfulness, honesty, integrity, love, pain, and a bit of dry humor. I expect nothing less from my words, nor would I expect from anyone else.

I do love the church, I just have the hardest time liking it.

However, if you want me to show myself out the door from here... just say the word.

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(off topic) What does your signature say?

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I never hear anything about the faults of church because frankly no one brings them up, nor no one dares to bring them up...

I could list a few ... and I'm a pastor.

I can tell by this point you are fed up with me. All I have tried to be here is honest and to the point. That's it. No fluffing up, no patronizing, no lying, no deceit.

I think it was a little early for SAM. I don't think anyone is offended (certainly not me) and no apologies needed.

I do this so that when I go back and tell my family the reasons why they should (despite all the preconceptions), the chances of a positive outcome increase dramatically. And if I can get my family saved, then perhaps I can win a few co-workers and neighbors over. I have to know what my responsiblites as a Christian are, what I can and can't do, better...

Right on-- that's what it's all about.

what are my "freedoms"?...

It might be helpful if you present a few questions.

By the way, I don't think you told us where your wife is at spiritually.

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(off topic) What does your signature say?

ahhh... a bit of a mystery

It's what I consider the oddest "life verse" anyone could have ever picked but I like to consider myself odd, it fits me.

Genesis 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they cannot understand one another's speech.
The actual text in the sig is written in Nordic English which is a phonetic alphabet for the English language I invented some time ago. It's a kind of double irony... confusion on top of confusion.

I picked that because I am studying three different languages. Italian, Spanish, and now German. I would like to someday start a ministry of my own where a language known by a church member is taught to other Christians that are potential missionaries. I don't hear too much of it and frankly I think it's a good idea. Foreign languages can be real time consuming and expensive. But I think it's necessary if one is to effectively reach the people. One thing I have never forgotten is when I take the time to learn another's language, that opens doors that even leeching off a translator could never do. It's what Jesus did, stepping down to our level, just like I did sacrificing the time just to say something in their own language. I don't know if it's my "gift" but I think it's worth investigating.

I have been studying (really just for fun, mind you) the history and breakdown of many of the world's tongues. Two branches should have familiar names to us all... the Hamitic (from Ham) center around Berber and Sub-African tongues. Semitic (from Shem) are the Altaic, Arabic, and Hebrew families. Japheth is kind of a mystery because that would leave the Indo-European (home of all Germanic tongues like German and English) and Austro-Asian languages (Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Vietnamese, etc). I am really interested from a historical viewpoint what happened to us after Gen. 11:7-9 when Babel was abandoned.

But that's just me... learning German and Italian gives my brain exercise that was missing for a while. Now if I can just concentrate on more verses....

Told ya I was odd...

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Quote:
what are my "freedoms"?...
It might be helpful if you present a few questions.

I guess I meant, what are my "freedoms" in Christ?
For example, pork is ok to eat now... a 7th-day Adv. accused me of not following scripture because Levitucus clearly outlaws all pork as unclean. Now if I witness to Jews or Arabs, I should "temporarily" not-exercise those freedoms lest I so gravely offend a potential brother that conversion is impossible. From what I hear...

And bringing up "brothers", that's another big gripe I have. We as Christians do not behave like brothers. I'm an only child yet I have 3 other "half"-siblings. None of them have ever been raised with me so while we are still technically brothers & a sister... reality -- we are just strangers with the same last name.

I don't know really what a brother or sister in Christ is supposed to look like or act like, but I am discouraged that many times I get treated more as a stranger or at best distant cousin. Am I making sense? There's got to be a better way...

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Where is your wife at spiritually?