Growthtrac Community

[veggiemelt]

rd & km, all women are not the same, just as all men are not the same. However, there are specific behaviors, incidents, etc. encountered in a persons life that will almost always trigger the same defense mechanisms. We are built to adapt, God made us this way. Our minds and bodies compensate in one way or another for our survival. rd, you say that your wife no longer has feelings for you and that she does not want to be intimate because it feels like rape. That makes total sense to me, in fact I have been there.

Several years ago, for various reasons, my marriage began to deteriorate and my husband and I drifted apart. As is typical in most relationships, our sexual relationship deteriorated as well. I did not feel close to him and even though I still had feelings for him, they were buried pretty deep and it was pretty tough for me to endure even the thought of him touching me. He was really self absorbed during this point in our lives, and didn't really even give much thought to me, so mild porn and masturbation worked fine for him. About every three to five weeks, we did it pretty much just because we thought we should I guess, but it was very uncomfortable for me, and though I wouldn't nessesarily use the word rape, I did feel like I was being molested by a someone I once trusted. This is deffinately not a good thing for a woman, so I hope that you are compassionate toward her in that she cannot give herself to you if she does not feel love toward you. There is most likely something in your relationship or in her past that would cause her to lose or at least put aside her feelings for you. This is what caused me to withdraw, and I my feelings for my husband did not return until I had dealt with the past, and until my husband began to make changes in himself that allowed me to be vulnerable to him again. Maybe if you were to help her through other things in her life and take the pressure off of her for sex, maybe she at some point she will be able to let you into her heart again. Be careful, if she thinks you are being kind and understanding of her just so that you can get in her panties, it is going to totally backfire. She has to know that whatever you do for her is out of selfless love and that you do not expect anything in return.

km - from what you have said about your wife in other posts, it sounds like maybe your wifes issues aren't with you or your relationship, but with her own sexuality and her comfort zone with her body parts. -This is entirely different then body image,- where a woman feels comfortable with her own sexuality , but she just doesn't really love the way her body looks.
What your wife may be experiencing could be more in a feeling of shame, in that those parts of her body and yours are dirty and sex is humilating or gives her a feeling of shame or that she has done something wrong. This is many times a question of upbringing, especially if she was raised in a conservative household and/or is she was molested as a child.
I am not a phycologist, and this is just a stab in the dark, but I know enough about both of these situations to recognize some of the signs. If this is what you are dealing with, it is something that could have even been repressed for years and then for some unknown reason just surfaced and made her different overnight. The typical types of things that would work to win over a woman's affections will not work for you if this is her situation.

Have either of you spoken with a counselor about what could be causing abnormal emotions, reactions, or mental issues beyond the everyday realm? Typical relationship books do not generally address phychological issues. These things require a more specialized type of help. If your wife will not see a counselor, that is OK, and in fact I would not even suggest that she do so until you have seen one yourself and can understand how delicate your situation might be. You can still help her work through these things by relating to her and understanding her in a different way. I have obviously made some assumptions here that may be way out there, so I hope neither of you find that offensive. Some thoughts just occurred to me, and I was just speculating on why your situations maybe weren't typical of the average woman.

[km]

veggiemelt - If she were to rtell me she'd been molested, I would believe it without hesitation. A lot about her fits the profile. But she works with special ed kids (including behavioral cases), and is quite the expert on them (highly eductaed and experienced, and well respected in the field) and works so much at getting them the help they need, I have trouble believing she would be so resitant to it herself if that were the case.

As to upbringing, her own parents weren't too bad, but the family is very religiously conservative and has a lot of extended family that are the sort of whacko/repressed/overboard fanatics that give religion a bad name. I am also very conservative religiously, but wasn't raised in that sort of environment (and had a sort of wild agnostic period in life before getting conservative). There is a lot about her that fits the religious repression profile too.

But there isn't much way to get through to a person who isn't open to any sort of personal change, is there?

[veggiemelt]

KM - this behavior is classic. Many people who have repressed issues or things that they just cannot address in their own mind will reach out to help others in the same situation. - I can't save myself, but I can save someone else. It is like living your own recovery through someone else, but never recovering yourself, because you can't even handle addressing the issue in your own mind. A sort of denial I guess. Ultra religious background just culminates this idea, because this mentality just makes it that much more of something that is to shameful that you cannot expose it.
You can help her, even if she cannot deal with herself or does not want to open up or talk about anything. If you can understand what is happening inside of her head and how it has effected her mentality and her life. You can begin to reach her in a way that will make her feel safe and understood. In time, through the love and trust that you build in her, she will eventually be able to address her own issues. There are ways that a counselor can guide you through, that will enable you to gradually release some of what is in her mind. Do not, I repeat, do not directly ask her if she has ever been abused or molested, she cannot tell you that, because that would mean that she would have to admit it to herself and that you would not be able to love her anymore because she is not pure.
What you will be doing for her is, over a course of time, removing any doubt about how you would feel about her if you knew. If she is carrying a secret like that, trust me - she does not want anyone to know and the dept of those scars go far beyond anything you could ever imagine. Just take this into account, why do you think she hates herself so much? She didn't do anything wrong and it wasn't her fault, but it always feels like it is your fault and you will always feel like your body is disgusting. You can never wash it off, and it will never stop making you feel unworthy. Please, if you think this is even a remote possibility, see a counselor and start getting the tools for yourself to help her cope with the demands inside of her.
There is hope, but it will be a long road. As the tears are rolling down my cheeks, I am holding you up in prayer.

[rdsmith3]

rd, you say that your wife no longer has feelings for you and that she does not want to be intimate because it feels like rape. That makes total sense to me, in fact I have been there.

Several years ago, for various reasons, my marriage began to deteriorate and my husband and I drifted apart. As is typical in most relationships, our sexual relationship deteriorated as well. I did not feel close to him and even though I still had feelings for him, they were buried pretty deep and it was pretty tough for me to endure even the thought of him touching me. He was really self absorbed during this point in our lives, and didn't really even give much thought to me, so mild porn and masturbation worked fine for him. About every three to five weeks, we did it pretty much just because we thought we should I guess, but it was very uncomfortable for me, and though I wouldn't nessesarily use the word rape, I did feel like I was being molested by a someone I once trusted. This is deffinately not a good thing for a woman, so I hope that you are compassionate toward her in that she cannot give herself to you if she does not feel love toward you. There is most likely something in your relationship or in her past that would cause her to lose or at least put aside her feelings for you. This is what caused me to withdraw, and I my feelings for my husband did not return until I had dealt with the past, and until my husband began to make changes in himself that allowed me to be vulnerable to him again. Maybe if you were to help her through other things in her life and take the pressure off of her for sex, maybe she at some point she will be able to let you into her heart again. Be careful, if she thinks you are being kind and understanding of her just so that you can get in her panties, it is going to totally backfire. She has to know that whatever you do for her is out of selfless love and that you do not expect anything in return.

I really appreciate your input on this. I have definitely taken the pressure off of her. I do not mention sex anymore, not even joking around (which I used to do). As I said, I have tried to just completely surrender it. On Valentine's day, she said something like, "I suppose I owe you sex?" and I replied, "No, you don't owe me anything. It's OK."

My wife was molested by her alcoholic father. She has been through lots of counseling for many years, both secular and Christian. She says she has forgiven him, but I can't help but think that the anger and unforgiveness she directs at me is really towards her father and God. She admits to being angry at God for allowing that to happen to her.

She is in the social work field herself, which fits the pattern you mention. She is also in the "all men are pigs" mode of thinking.

I work on changing me, and I pray for her frequently. There is not much else I can do. However, I realize that I am still vulnerable to pornography and extramarital affairs.

[km]

While I've had that as a vague background suspicion, I've not gotten to the point of thinking molestation as really being the source of the problem. I'll think more on it.

Are there any good books to recommend to help tilt me over to seeing it if it is there?

[veggiemelt]

rd - sorry to hear of your wife's situation. It is very difficult to ever deal with being violated by someone whom you are taught to love and trust. I do in dead have a unique challenge. It does seem though that you have the integrity to deal with it, even though it may be difficult. No matter what your wife says or how she makes you feel, remember that your instincts and needs are normal and natural and even though men do typically cross the more more often then women, all men are deffinately not pigs. If it makes you feel any better, women have bizzaar and inappropriate thoughts and fantasies as well and we are just as prone is not more to emotional affairs. Your wife has been through something very difficult, that she may never recover from, but that doesn't make you any less of a man. Forgiving yourself of something that you have to continue to struggle with is really difficult, but God will always forgive you and you don't have to shoulder all of the temptations on your own.

km - I dealt with these issues a long time ago, without counseling, I did read alot of books, but don't recall off hand what any of them were. Is there a relative you could talk to that would give you better insight into your wife? There are other signs you could look for as well, such as, how does she react to you when you are intimate. Does she exhibit signs of hesitation or even pain. Does she just want to get it over with? or on the opposite sign of the spectrum, is she acting out sexually in ways that would exhibit signs of low self respect. Prudish behavior and overly explicit sexual behavior are both signs of abuse.

Further, it doesn't even have to be severe violation to trigger all of the feelings and mental distress I spoke of. It could even be something that happened with an old boyfriend that was beyond her comfort zone, especially if she is ultra religious. Or it could be something that she did with you that pushed her over the edge. When girls or women are manipulated, guilted, or otherwise led into a situation that pushes them beyond their comfort zone. There is a loss of self respect, that makes you feel dirty or tainted in a way that can totally alter your perception and comfort with anything sexual. Further, it is seriously damaging to your self esteem. It can give you a feeling of self loathing that makes you want to destroy yourself. Really, I encourage you to look into it, she should not have to live with a secret. She should be able to expose it to you so that she can cleanse herself of the shame. If she is holding something, it is hurting both of you.

[SAM]

Dr. Dan Allender has some great books out on this -

The Wounded Heart: Hope for Adult Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse
To Be Told: God Invites You to Coauthor Your Future
The Cry of the Soul: How Our Emotions Reveal Our Deepest Questions About God

I have two friends with similar abuse backgrounds from childhood.
One has gone through Dr. Allender's retreats and is on her way to healing.
The other has chosen to stay where she is, and is still very much in self-hatred mode
as well as hating God.

[km]

veggiemelt - there are no former boyfriends (I actually think we'd be better off had there been - as we have no realworld points of comparison or experiences in real relationships with others to have hammered home the points about how different the opposite sex is). And she is far is to the very prudish end of the spectrum.

If there was abuse, it was childhood (pre-teen at least). I don't think there is any living relative who could shed light on whether anything might have happened.



SAM - I may try to look at those reference books

[veggiemelt]

Hmm, very prudish you say. Interesting.

[veggiemelt]

km - I have some information that could be helpful to you, but I am just not sure if I want to put it on the internet. Check out the books Sam mentioned, also be aware, there are other types of abuse, such as things that are put into your head as a child that can be way more damaging to you in the long run then physical abuse. I feel very moved to share my story right now, as I think alot of people could be helped and encouraged, as well as comforted by it. But I am going to have to think and pray about it first, so I know that it is the right thing to do.

[veggiemelt]

I was just thinking about some stuff on my nightly run, and though I may be opening a disagreeable subject, I'm going to put my personal beliefs out there anyway. I hope no one finds it offensive and if you do I apologize.

Men and women both have very intense needs driven by our biology. For men, it is a physical release of bodily fluids. Everyone learns this in junior high biology. But the further explanation of the timing and intensity of that need is not, or at least in my time, was not ever given to girls. Likewise, women have a need for emotional release and fulfillment, that is somewhat driven by hormones, but not nessesarily. Girls are given the biology of what goes on with our bodies, but the rest of it is pretty much a mystery to us as well.

None the less, as males and females, need what we need for our bodies and our minds to function. There is no sin in that, and there is no shame in it either. God does not tell us anywhere in the bible that fulfilling our own needs is wrong. What he did tell us, is that our thoughts have to remain pure. You guys say that the longer you go without release, the more temptation becomes a problem. If you are in a relationship where your needs are not being fulfilled by a woman, would it not be more right by God's plan to remove that temptation with a pure mind, then to subject your marriage to moral distruction? Especially if it is with your wife's permission and knowledge. I know that it is possible to condition yourself to thoughts that are not sinful, or to relax your mind and focus on sensation alone. From my understanding, this would not be a sin.

I have spoken in the past about my husband's issues with porn and masturbation. What I am saying here might seem contradictory. But, in or out of a relationship, porn is just morally wrong, and it is damaging toward your partner or your future partner for more reasons then one. Masturbation, however, without the use of porn or impure thoughts, is not explicitly a moral sin, or is it nessesarily harmful to relationships. I think for the most part, men believe that women think the idea of a guy doing that sort of thing is disgusting and offensive. This is not true, far from it in fact. Actually we understand it a whole lot more then you think. The thing that makes it wrong in a relationship, is if it is taking the place of your partner, or making you less likely to rely on and enjoy your partner and when your partner is willing and actually wants to participate. From my understanding, guys in a sexless relationship have every right to take care of their needs in order to protect their marriage.

[rdsmith3]

veggiemelt

Your thoughts are very similar to where I have ended up in my thinking in this area.

[SAM]

Well said, Veggiemelt.

...A thought from your post.

If it is with your wife's permission and knowledge.

With a wife's permission and knowledge is a key component here.
Unfortunately, this is often not the case. Personal release is done in hiding and with
visual stimulation (a magazine, a computer screen). The images used to increase
arousal, are not the images of the spouse. This is where the line is crossed into
lust. And, the Bible talks quite a bit about the issue of lust... being adultery.

[km]

veggiemelt - I sent you a PM (which is an option here for info one wishes to share directly without sharing for the whole forum).

I greatly appreciate your thoguhts, and can't really disagree.

It is very difficult for men to obtain a solo release without the mind wandering where it oughtn't go. In my case, I also don't really feel I have 'permission' (regardless of what she said - I took it as more along the lines of when a woman says "fine" - which means things are the opposite of "fine"). I also believe that anything done with her knowledge would make the situation worse between us (undermining her respect for me - it strikes me that it would be tantamount to telling her that I am just an animal and without the ability to properly deal with my "base", "sinful" or "evil" urges).

[rdsmith3]

In my case, I also don't really feel I have 'permission' (regardless of what she said - I took it as more along the lines of when a woman says "fine" - which means things are the opposite of "fine"). I also believe that anything done with her knowledge would make the situation worse between us (undermining her respect for me - it strikes me that it would be tantamount to telling her that I am just an animal and without the ability to properly deal with my "base", "sinful" or "evil" urges).

As I mentioned back on page 2, my wife has basically said that if I have any needs, I should take care of them myself. As I also mentioned, her sister seems to have the same attitude. We were discussing her husband's prostate problems and how frequent sex is supposed to help with it. She said that she is good for once or twice a week, but if he wants it more than that, well, he knows where the bathroom is.

The last time my wife inquired about this, she asked me something like, "When was the last time you used self service?" I told her that I would be happy to have a discussion with her about our sex life and our respective needs in this area, but I did not see the point in answering just that question without discussing the bigger picture. She has never asked about it again.

She already thinks men are pigs with disgusting urges. She does not want to think much more about these urges and how they are fulfilled, similar to how you don't really want to know how they make sausages or hot dogs.