Growthtrac Community

[confused]

KM, You are so right. I absolutely hate the thought of giving my heart back to my wife. Knowing what she did with it the 1st and 2nd time. I guess the way we have to look at it, is that we are really giving our hearts to GOD not our spouses. I think if our spouses see us truly doing that, it will have a great effect on how our spouses view us going forward and also " hopefully" how they treat us. Hoping they realize what a gift GOD has given them, A spouse who would stay with them during a real time of crisis, no matter of who's making it was. I know this all sounds good, but very different to live out everyday. Totall dependence on GOD which is where GOD wants us anyway. I just never thought it would take this kind of thing to bring that about. Have great THANKSgiving everyone!!!

[SAM]

I know, I've been married to one for a looooong time.
But, we've been working on it. It definitely does not come naturally.
I can count on one hand how many times I have seen him cry.

However, when the T & V is there, it melts the heart of a woman.
I know it melts mine.

[confused]

Sam,

Then I should be building up lots of melting hearts. I have cried more in the last 4 months than whole life combined easily. It's amazing how easy it is to cry now and I hate it. I feel like a blubbering idiot sometimes. It certainly is providing alot of humility for me.

[km]

I wasn't even approaching the T & V issue from the standpoint of someone who's been burned.

Men are socialized from the youngest ages to hide vulnerabilty and maintain some mystery - it is a large part of achieving/maintaining any social standing among one's intial peers and then as one broadens into new social groups. Men are trained to appear invulnerable and 'play your cards close to the vest' as a matter survival.

It is incredibly difficult for a man to do T & V. I would suggest that it is functionally equivilent to asking the ladies to go physically stark naked in a public place. An issues/resistance/reluctance you ladies have about physical nakedness will be mirrored every bit as strongly by men as to T & V.

[SAM]

Gotcha... fully understand the societal angle to this. And, unfortunately, it seeps into the marriage relationship.

I was speaking in terms of developing the spiritual oneness and intimacy God designed for our marriages. A little T & V goes a long way. At least it does in my marriage.

[km]

I will go along that a man should ideal get to the point of full emotional T & V with his wife. That should be acheived every bit as much as a woman should get to the point of complete physical comfortableness and total sexual abandon with her husband.

I have heard the ladies here go on about their problems with physical openess and such. Translate those feelings to the man and they manifest in difficulty with T & V - every bit as strongly if not more so.

[SAM]

I have heard the ladies here go on about their problems with physical openness and such.

km -
Unfortunately, way too many of the women on the boards have dealt with chronic infidelity or pornography addictions with their husbands. That will devastate a woman's willingness for physical openness. She will never feel the same way about herself again.

If a woman has a husband who is sold out to God in all parts of his life and willing to be transparent and vulnerable, then I don't believe physical openness is as much of an issue. I would venture to guess bedroom adventures are rather fulfilling.

That has been my experience and what turned my marriage around - we both became fully active participants in loving God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength. Transparency and vulnerability works both ways, but it usually more of a male issue than female. Until we were willing to work on these areas in our marriage (full disclosure, no more secrets, and God) - things were less than fulfilling in many areas of our relationship.

My experience with many friends and couples my husband and I mentor is, one spouse or both, has too much personal baggage. They are deeply afraid to let anyone know the "true" them and will not participate in counseling, which requires transparency and vulnerability. There might be a chance the "true" them will be revealed and they simply cannot allow that to happen.

[km]

I was not making light of the ladies here - not by any means. But that has come up a few times and it struck me as being a very apt analogy that offered a good chance of being grasped.

I was raised with the John Wayne/Clint Eastwood sort of idea of manliness. Not much T & V there. You take whatever pounding the world gives uyou and never, ever let any pain show. No crying is allowed. And if you display any vulnerability at all, that point became the target for others who would try to take you down.

On the other hand, I was also socialized out of any sense of physical modesty. As an athlete, I had to get used to being naked - changing, showering and such in a room with lots of other men, and in the presence of still other men and sometimes some women.

[SAM]

Didn't think you were making light in any way - only thought you may not be aware of some of the painful histories experienced.

Yes, fully understand the John Wayne/Rambo/GI Joe mentality. I was an army brat, and even the women in the family had to buck it up, show no emotion, and stand at attention.

Have a blessed Thanksgiving. Good to banter back and forth with you.
You have a unique perspective on things.

[crusade7]

It;s been almost 3 weeks and some moments are harder than other's. I still can't talk to her but I wrote her a letter saying that I am not angry, bitter and not seeking revenge and that I forgive her. I told her that I am not going to hold what happened against her but I am just dealing with the last memories and all those senseless questions that even if answered will never take the pain away.
I told her I am willing to go to counslling and try to work it out but can't promise anything right now..I just don't want to be with her...I know she is suffering over the guilt but I can't help her..
I am still in shambles....

[SAM]

Thanks for the update. I will keep praying for you.

Do not feel guilty or apologize for how you are feeling right now. It is understandable, and part of the process of grieving your marriage. I pray that the counseling will be helpful to you.

[crusade7]

We went to our first cousneling session together and I came out of it angrier than going in becasue none of what transpired between my wife and my friend was ever mentioned. Right now I just feel so inadequate everytime I look her or think about any future with her.
I know she is trying to rebuild her own faith which is good but she is not someone I can trust or even like right now.
She wants to go on like nothing happened!!!

[km]

There are some marriage counselors that don't want to directly deal with an affair.- but instead focus on "teaching the couple to communicate better". If there is a real breach (like with an affair in many cases), it would seem that teaching better communication without addressing the point the conflict centers on just gives the couple more ammunition or bigger artillery to fight with.

[crusade7]

I honestly do not want to be with her right now. Should I feel guilty for saying that? I know she is hurting and going through stuff but she is not someone I would even date if I were single. Obviously at one time I did thinking that I knew her.
My only reason being at that house is for the kids.

[SAM]

I'm sorry, your post is not real clear.

Becasue none of transpired between them was ever mentioned.

I'm guessing that maybe there was more between them than what you originally thought?

Or. did the counselor not bring up the affair at all? Did you bring up the affair?

A counselor is going to be very careful to not point the finger at the party who has been involved in a sinful pattern. It may be what you would like to see because you are hurting, but do you believe this would accomplish healing in your relationship by making her feel judged by a counselor? That the counselor's job is to fix her?

You are there to work on your marriage. And, even though she is the guilty party, there was brokenness in her and brokeness in your marriage that the two of you are going to have to work on together. Which means she's not the only one who has work to do - you do to. If you are willing to work the process, I can guarantee you that God will have many things to show you and teach you. You have to be a willing vessel for forgiveness and restoration. When you don't feel like it, then it's time to ask for God's strength and wisdom in that moment.