Growthtrac Community

[Average Joe]

This is my first post ever, but I have been viewing this site for a while. 1st a little background -

My wife and an affair for 4 years. I found out after the 1st year and she continued to lie to me for the following three. We have two Super great kids - Boy 11 and girl 8. I stayed with her because I thought I loved her and most importantly, I wanted to keep the family together. Let's fast forward to today. She tells me (as she always had) that there has been NC with OM since this October. I don't believe her nor do I trust her. She says she is committed to us and the fam. I'm not naive any more. I'm done being played for a fool. I'm 35, smart, have a great job and not that bad looking. It may be time for a change.

There is no passion in our marriage anymore. If she agrees to be intimate, there is never any romance - simply a bodily act. I've tried talking to her about it. I've offered to go to a counselor but she doesn't take me up on the offer. As with all families we are very busy. I've told her I wanted some "us" time and we needed to devote time to fixing our marriage yet she does nothing to be proactive. My love bank is empty and she is not making any deposits. I've carried the load ling enough and told her so. She always turns things on me and says that I need to do "this" first before she does “that." tit for tat. I won't have anymore of it. I'm miserable and becoming more and more frustrated to the point where I'm losing my sense of humor and becoming an irritable person.

I love being a father to my kids and can't imagine being without them. That said, I am still thinking of divorcing my wife so I am not subjected to the misery of being with a cheater and a liar who obviously has no desire for me. I've tried talking to people - best friend, pastor etc. Both have said I have just grounds for a divorce, but that the problems will not go away - which I agree. That is the main reason I've stayed this long. I just want to be happy again.

Any thoughts?

[rdsmith3]

Welcome here.

I can understand your frustration with a cheating wife, and your desire for more out of life. If you "just want to be happy again" I can tell you from personal experience that divorce will not get you there. It really adds to your problems without subtracting anything. Certainly there may be just grounds for divorce, but I am just trying to give you the reality that it does not resolve anything. There is also a good chance that you will end up with less time with your kids.

Your happiness will come through God, and your relationship with Jesus, and that is where you should focus your efforts at this point.


I lift you up in prayer, that God would heal your marriage.

[Average Joe]

Thanks for the reply and the encouragemnt. I realize that the problems will always remain, even in a divorce.

I struggle with staying in a marriage in which my wife is not in love with me. She "settled" for me because of the embarrasment it would cause her to leave me for the OM. We live in a extremely small community and we are both active in church. We definitely live in a fish bowl, yet no one knows the pain she has caused. I've sheltered her and myself from exposing our personal lives to the church/community. Even the kids don't know the vast majority of it.

I know life isn't fair, but why should I put myself through this any longer? There is no hope in sight. Nothing has changed in years, why would I excpect things to change now? Maybe I'm still in the resentment phase.

[STILLINLOVE2791]

I BELIEVE IN GOD THAT HE CAN CHANGE ANY HEART AND AT TIMES WE GET INPATIENT, REMEMBER IT IS IN HIS TIME, BELIEVE SHE WILL CHANGE AND BECOME PROACTIVE IN THE MARRIAGE,KEEP PRAYING AND BEING A LOVING HUSBAND NO MATTER WHAT.

I PRAY MY HUSBAND WOULD OF AT LEAST ATTEMPTED TO SAVE THIS MARRIAGE, I AM NEWLY WED AND IT IS REALLY ALREADY OVER, I WON'T GIVE UP, AND I DON'T BELIEVE YOU SHOULD GIVE UP BUT I CAN RELATE TO YOUR PAIN. GOD BLESS AND KEEP THE PRAYERS GOING.

[Godkindoflife]

Hi, this is Chris Davisson,

Yes, this is definitely a problem. My dad got into an affair and this is how they start... Him and my mom (Joel and Kathy Davisson) help people now who are having marriage troubles like this. If you go to http://tinyurl.com/marriagetrouble you will find help from them as a couple who came out successful after adultery.

God Bless

[km]

It is often said that an affair requires at least 2 to 5 years to really recover from - and that is if both partners really work at it.

Did her affair become public? You may need to think of exposing it - if she still seems to be foggily longing for the OM. Exposuure of affairs is a great disinfectant - however unpleasant it may be initially.

[veggiemelt]

Guys, I find this very interesting.

There is no passion in our marriage anymore. If she agrees to be intimate, there is never any romance - simply a bodily act.

There is a general belief that women are the ones who want passion and romance and that men just want sex. Women actually largely believe this, and the idea is even validated by the way that guys in general talk about sex. Most women, myself included have the idea that passion and romance are more of a chore and that you only do those things to get sex. There has been a number of posts lately by men who have mentioned the lack of romance, passion or connection physically in their marriage. What I am hearing is that you do in fact want or possibly even need those things and the absence of that makes you feel a sense of dissatisfaction even if you wife is willing to have sex with you. AM I on track here?

What I am hearing is that you want to be intimate with her not just because you need physical release, but because in fact it is the way that you feel connected to her, like maybe it is how you show love to her? Maybe how you express you feelings in things that you would not or cannot even say? And if she is not emotionally connected to the experience, then is it in fact a form of rejection, maybe even the worst kind of rejection? And because you cannot put what you feel for her into words because it is not in your nature, you have no way of really showing or feeling what you have inside for her, so it leaves you completely lost in how to reach her?

Obviously men are very sexually wired, but I do not think that most women realize that it may be in fact the only way in fact that you can really express emotion, and it may in fact be the only way that you can really feel it is in something physical.
Is that what is really going on? Like, sex as in just a disconnected act, no matter how wild or raunchy or physically satisfying, it really is'nt what you are looking for? In fact maybe you aren't really looking for that kind of sex at all. Maybe you don't want something that doesn't mean anything and that even if it is just because you are horny, you still want to feel a connection somewhere in it? And could it be possible that if that connection is lacking that you might rather release on your own, just to get it out of the way, then to place a burden on a woman who you do not feel even wants to be there in the first place? Like, there could possible be guilt or that you might actually feel bad for sleeping with her if is it just for sex, because you love her and you respect her and you don't just want to be with her as if she were a stranger?

Is it possible that if she can't connect with you, or if she won't connect with you, that you might in fact stop even asking her for that? And yet, because it is the only way you really know how to show your true feelings for her, you keep trying hoping one day it will be different?

If I am on the right track here, then women and men are actually looking for the same thing, but because we don't understand that when men want sex, it is something more - then we are giving it up for the wrong reason, because we think you just want sex, so we try to just give you that and not bug you for the passion and romance, because in the rest of our lives, it seems to be such a difficult task. It seems that alot of this is purely misunderstanding and maybe as men and women we are looking for something in the wrong places and giving our partner what we think they want, when what they really want is exactly we what are looking for as well.

My husband and I watched this movie the other night, not one that really meets the criteria for a truly fitting Christian lifestyle and yet one that many of us as Christians do not put out of our limits. It is a comedy called Zach and Mira Make a Porno. It is not a porn flick, it is just your typical "R" rated comedy, it does show skin in a couple of scenes and it could be offensive to some people, but what the movie is really about is two people who really like one another, but neither of them will admit to it. It was very enlightening, because it is so profoundly like my own relationship. Neither one of us wants to be the first to admit something or say something - so the feeling as hidden and assumptions are made. It is more a game of chicken then anything, but it has caused alot of harm, because so many things have been taken the wrong way and there is hesitation in saying what we really mean or what we really want. It is living with assumption and much of it is stereotypical assumption, as in women believe men want this... and men believe women want that... and none of it is actually true, or not true in the way that it seems. It is dangerous and damaging to marriages and to the individuals in those marriages and it effects the deepest parts of it because it leaves room for doubt or uncertainty.

If I am right here in what I have asked you guys about sex and intimacy, then I think I may have in fact just unlocked the door to why my husband's behavior seems so bizzaar and why I can't seem to make sense of it according to what the average book tells you.
It isn't that the books are wrong, it is just that I have misunderstood the motive of the actions and what appears to be negative could be in fact completely positive. Let me know guys if I am on track, because if I am, I think God just showed me the door to repairing the rest of my marriage. And it in fact lies in my own heart, because if this is true, he is the one who is completely on track right now and I have just been missing it, because I have been waiting for the wrong train.

[km]

I would have to say that (a large percentage of) men connect largely through sex. If the sex life is poor, a man isn't going to be able to provide much of the romance and such that a woman desires (in the same way that women say that without all of the other romantic gestures there will be no good sex). Without a good (active, particapatory, enthusiastic) sex life, you get relagated largely to the "buddy" category - and are you a better "buddy" to him than any number of other people? Probably not, to be perfectly honest. There are likely a half dozen people in his life whose company he enjoys as well - if not more - as "buddies". The bedroom (not to limit it to there) is the one place you can sho him a time that no one else is (supposed to be) able to show him. If you don't, the romance in him will atrophy away.

A partner who isn't actively engaged in sex is provides an experience that is on a par with taking care of oneself alone in the shower (a physical release and nothing more) or even less so, because there is an expectation of more than a mere release. If your husband were to just lay there and require that you climb on and do all the work to get yourself off (with no active assistance or enthusiasm on his part), would you find that a satisfying sexual experience? I think not. The difference is that men will still have sex with a wife who treats him that way, because of the need for the physical release. It won't be satisfying in any other sense, and it certainly won't inspire poetry or romantic gestures. It will likely inspire a great deal of resentment.

Men and women are looking for much of the same things - but are different, and thus go about getting to those same things by different routes. Some of the emphasies are different, but a very good relationship will be enjoyed similarly by both.

[charity1]

veggiemelt,
You have discovered exactly the same thing I did. My husband and I had been married 30 years before his affair. I was like you, I thought I was just basically his "toy". I thought my thoughts and feelings didn't matter to him at all as long as he got his release, but after the affair, he finally said he didn't feel desired! I was amazed! After 30 years of at least 3 times a week, he didn't feel desired! Hello! Then he went on to say that for years he had felt like something was wrong with him because I didn't seem like I really wanted him. He said he often wondered if I might be happier with somebody else. I couldn't believe it! Here he felt rejected and I had felt used for years. If only we could have talked about it!! He said he had tried to talk to me about it, and actually looking back, he did, but in a very negative, harsh way. I got the feeling he was criticizing my lovemaking skills. I didn't get what he was really asking for. He feels horrible now and so do I. Like you said, we both wanted the same thing, we just didn't really know how to ask for it.

When he told me having sex is how men feel intimacy, I asked him how prostitutes fit into that scenario. I think that is what really throws us women off. If men are looking for intimacy, why would they go to a paid professional? That woman certainly doesn't desire the man, she desires his money! My husband said he honestly couldn't explain that one, but he could see where that might confirm my theory that men were only in it for the physical release. I sure wish someone had explained this to me when I got married, my whole married life could have been so different. Now the innocence of our marriage is gone all because neither of us was able to express what we really needed. You had asked once why we betrayed spouses stay in our marriage once we have been betrayed, and that is one of my reasons. I realize now, I wasn't the innocent party I thought I was. I have a lot of guilt about our sex life. I can see now why he would have felt rejected and felt like less of a man. I didn't intentionally hurt him, and it didn't give him a license to go out and cheat, but still, I played a part in his temptation. God has worked it all out for good by allowing us to finally talk about it and discover what we both need and want. We have a completely different marriage now from what we used to have. I wouldn't recommend this route to anybody, but we have a stronger and more committed marriage now than we've ever had. That's not to say the pain of the affair goes away, it just slowly becomes more bearable.

[km]

Men have a physical need for the release of sex. They also have a strong need for intimacy and feeling desired by the women they are with. While I've never patronized a prostitute, I have a couple of acquaintances who do so with some regularity - they say that the women are generally fairly good actresses (if you want bad enough to suspend your knowledge of what the deal really is) as well as physical partners. Just passively giving in (and feeling used in the process) may be as bad as trying to make him celibate.

[veggiemelt]

Interesting responses, I would like to hear what Average Joe has to say? A.J. can you expend on that comment.
How are things going now?

[Average Joe]

This is bizare... I logged on today for the first time in a long while and was pleasantly surprised to see that there has been some responses to my post! Thank you all.

Things are going a bit better as of late, but there are still daily struggles. From what I can tell, there is NC with OM since last fall. That definitely has helped. There are glimmers of hope now and again that she sends me which has also helped.

Amazingly, I've talked with her about these very same issues of physical vs. emotional needs of a man. As usual, every time I bring it up she thinks I am complaining, but in reality, I am trying to find a way to express my feelings. KM, you hit it right on the head a number of times. I guess I'm still looking for a beter way to communicate with her. Any other ideas?

Thanks again for the responses. I enjoyed reading them all.

[charity1]

Average Joe,
I am so glad there are glimmers of hope and that you believe there hasn't been any contact with the OM in several months. That is a huge requirement in making your marriage work.

One thing I thought about when I was reading all of these posts is that we women tell our husbands how much we need hugs, kisses and hand holding, but we tend not to get that very often. Men get aroused so quickly by these things that they tend to save them for the bedroom. That is very frustrating for the woman. That is why she feels used and feels that her husband only wants her for one thing. My husband is working very hard on this now that he understands it is something I really need out of the bedroom in order to be responsive in the bedroom. Each partner has to give the other partner what they need in order for the marriage to be fulfilling. I have reminded my husband that he could hug me, kiss me and hold my hand while we were dating without exploding, so he can do it now. He may not reap the benefits of that in the moment, but he can later. Anything worthwhile is worth waiting for. He still doesn't initiate those things as much as I would like, but I have learned to just initiate them myself. I have learned you don't get what you don't ask for.

Ironically I believe mine and my husband's ages have helped our marriage. Now that my husband is older, he is not quite as interested in sex as he used to be, so I can initiate more. He used to want me to initiate, but since we were so active anyway, I never felt the need to. As a matter of fact, I felt like I needed the rest! Now I'm older, my hormones have been balanced, and I'm the one who normally initiates. I can tell he isn't always necessarily in the mood, but he loves the fact that I "want" him and gets in the mood fairly quickly. He said feeling wanted is what he has always needed from me. It's really kind of funny. We can both see each other's perspective now. That is something I used to try to explain to him. He could always get me in the mood fairly quickly, but he had to work at it - it didn't just happen, but he was hurt that I wasn't always eager. I told him the Lord has worked this all out perfectly. My husband kept our sex life going through the first half of our marriage, and hopefully I can keep it going through the last half! The important thing to remember, Average Joe, is that marriage needs to be two unselfish people willing to work to please the other person (outside of the bedroom just as much as in). Putting your own needs behind your partner's. That is very hard to do, but it works wonders if both are willing. Don't give up on communicating successfully with your wife. Pray for guidance. Nothing is impossible with God!

[veggiemelt]

Joe, glad to hear that things are looking up.
Charily, good points here. I think for myself, probably as well as others, is that I have for most of our marriage been willing to partake or offer sex. As in this is what I am supposed to do because we are taught that men want sex, and most women tend to view that as being somewhat in the porn sense, or at least in the "this is for him" sense. Therefore, we often tend not to take anything from it, other then that we will allow him to give us pleasure, but it is still in the sense that he is asking something from us and we are expected to not ask for something for ourselves. In other words, no matter what is going on, it is all ultimately for his pleasure.

Part of that is in fact that idea that men bring to the situation, and that is that we are not in the moment romanced into it, they do not give us time to get in the mood or a romantic loving frame of mind, therefore, we feel pressured to respond quickly and the only way to do that is literally to dis connect and let it be purely physical. That is not to say that anything purely physical for a female is not pleasant. But what it does mean, is that you don't really get to see what you want to see in us in that moment, because mentally we have not had the time to engage. So no matter what the physical act may be, which for many women is a heck of a lot more then just lying there, we are in fact sort of faking it. Like the orgasms might be real, but the mental aspect of us really being in the moment and enjoying it in the way that fulfills us emotionally, is not real. There are many of us who are in fact great at the physical performance and very good actresses ourselves, putting on the show that we are taught that men want. But in reality, it is not what we really want for ourselves, we are just giving you sex, when what we really want is for you to make love to us and mean it and for you to bring us to a mental state where we feel safe and loved so that we can in fact fully emotionally experience it and feel it as an act of love.

But like I said, men don't generally create those situations, which really doesn't have to be anything elaborate, it just means kissing us and talking softly and touching our skin before you do anything else. I mean music and candles certainly don't hurt, but they aren't nessesary. And we think because you don't take that time, that all you really want is in fact to get your rocks and get it over with while being mildly entertained.

What I think I figured out is that my husband is trying to tell me that he doesn't want just sex and yet that is what I have always believed. So, he is creating the romance and then trying to make it not end in sex, so that I will understand somehow that he does in fact love me and he is trying to show it to me without it turning to something less. I couldn't understand why he would create the perfect situation that would actually make me want and feel what I really want to feel in it, and then tell me no. And the reason is, that even though the circumstances are right, in my mind, as soon as it gets physical, I start trying to give him what I think that he wants - in other words no matter how romantic it is - I turn it into sex, because I am trying to please him. Until I started reading some of these posts, there are so many things that just did not add up for me and I kept trying to figure it out because it just didn't make any sense. But now I think I get it, I think I understand. Funny how something can be right in front of you and yet you can't really see it because society and life have completely blurred your vision to the point that we really don't know how to be a good spouse. We think we are doing the right thing, and we are in a sense, but what lies behind it is something entirely different then what we have been lead to believe.

I feel really bad for not knowing this before, but I think I had to go through all of the hard stuff in my marriage to get to the place where I can even appreciate this. I also think that God has been working in my husband and he has come to a point with his own morality where he can also see what sex in a marriage really is and he has somehow figured out that that is in fact what he really wants. I don't think when we were younger that either of us really understood any of that and both of us did alot of things for the wrong reasons and probably hurt each others feelings way more then we even realize now.

This is an amazing board, because the discussions are honest and forth coming and God uses everything here to help us learn and grow through the lives and words of other Christians.

Joe, sorry I kind nudged in on your thread, but you said some things that really hit home. Thanks for that. I hope that God is working in your marriage and I will pray for you.

[km]

Women who want romance and lots of touches outside of the bedroom need to react well to such things. If you 'pull up' whenever touched or give the 'not now' or 'not here' or 'stop that' response with regularity, you'll not get that behavior from him.

Men are not as good at reading people as women are, but we do read rejection from a woman fairly well.