Growthtrac Community

[veggiemelt]

Once again, I am going to play "devils advocate" so to speak. So I will upfront apologize for anyone this post may offend.

There seems to be alot of discussion on this board about the speculation of a spouse crossing lines. Women especially who have experienced some form of infidelity, be it porn, an affair, or just fear of infidelity - begin to develop a set of fears or insecurities that were not there before their knowledge of betrayal.

This is a normal reaction, and one that I have had myself. Once you have been burned you should proceed with a reasonable amount of caution. However, there is a point where we ourselves as the victom of infidelity, begin to cause more harm then good in our mistrust.

When your partner is tempted, Satan has seen a weekness and taken hold of that and used it to destroy something that was meant to be good, a marriage, a relationship, and both partners therein. He uses the weak partner to destroy both people.
When the person who has committed the sin of adultry repents and asks for forgiveness, that person has been given the chance to cleanse themselves and change. They are no longer the weak party in a relationship. At the point of discovery or admission, the innocent partner becomes the weaker party, and Satan's new door to destruction now lies in the one who has been hurt.

As both a person who has been wounded and has the fears of every other woman in my shoes. I did what you did, watching my husband's every move, wondering if there were things I didn't know about, looking for clues that he might still be cheating, checking his e'mail, monitoring the internet, and suspecting immorality in even a glance at another woman.
And, I am going to tell you where it got me. It turned me into a victom, not only of his sins, but of my own. Satan took the oportunity in my weakened state and used it to turn me into an offender by way of an emotional affair.

These experiences have been both a curse and at the same time a blessing as God took my hand when I surrendered to him, and he worked in my marriage to heal the damage that had been done. My marriage is stronger, and I am stronger now. But it is only because through prayer God has allowed me to see things from both sides in a different perspective.

Ladies, I am truly concerned for all of you who display the same sense of extreme behavior that prompts you to have no rational means of trust. But I implore you, please do not allow your marriage and yourself to once again be destroyed because of the doubt you carry inside. Look to God and ask him to help you sort out the emotional reaction or overreaction from the rational road to rebuilding trust. Do not allow yourself to lose all sense of trust to the point where you are asking your husband to stop being a man. It will not stop him from temptation, and those behaviors may actually drive him back.
Moreover, watching him all of the time will just make you crazy. Give your husband's battle to God, and work on healing your own heart in a way that is healthy so that you do not become the one who is vulnerable to temptation.

Friendships between women and men are not forbidden by God, they are only cautioned against in a weakened situation. Men and women as christians can be a great supporter of on another, and even have a really close friendships between men are women are not an emotional affair. Sharing information about your marriage with a person of the opposite sex is not and emotional affair, however it can be the groundwork for one. And this would be where you need to procede with caution, is the intention honorable and without secrecy, or it the relationship something that feels like it should be hidden.
Sometimes people hide things from their partner not because they are wrong, but because the other person would be unable to see it rationally. Women are especially guilty of this, because we tend to be more jealous in nature. But it is this jealousy that often causes a man to act on a perfectly innocent situation. His wife starts smothering him, so he runs away and seeks compantionship and understanding from a woman who is rational.

Mistrust, jealousy, smothering, clingyness, needyness, nagging, whining, and never accepting his attempts to change are all things that will make a man turn and run away or withdraw. Stop doing these things, they could very well be why he cheated in the first place. You cannot expect your husband to stop being a man and you cannot let him feel like he is man enough not to cheat if you treat him with total disregard for his male ego. Pray for God to open your heart to trust and let God take up the accountability issues with your husband.

[SAM]

Well said.

If a husband is constantly under a cloud of suspicion, and feels he can never do
anything to help, please, or love his wife "the way she needs", or seldom receives
a hint of praise when something is done right - he will simply stop trying.

It is very true that we can do more damage to our marriage than the pain of
the initial affair. Hanging on to our pain and justifying our way through treating
our spouse with disgust, disrespect, silence and distance - is revenge, no matter how we slice it.

[km]

veggiemelt - nicely said, I think.

SAM - I'd go one step further. A lot of men (and I'll admit to a bit of this myself) when put in the position of being totally wrong for even minor slips will end up with hte mindset of 'well, I'm screwed no matter what I do, so I'll jump in with both feet" - for example, if having a quick beer with the coworkers right after work and thus being being 15 minutes late getting home causes a huge blow up, why not stay for a couple hours and really have a good time - you're in the same amount of trouble either way. One might call it an immature minset or reaction - but it is not uncommon.

[confused]

Veggiemelt....This can also apply to opposite situation where the wife was unfaithful. I find myself wanting to hurt her in little ways and not trust her at all. It is very difficult to not want to hurt someone who has ripped out your heart and stomped all over it. I was always brought up that when someone offends or hurts you. you have the right and are expected to fight back in any way possible! You definitely hit the nail on the head though...I feel a huge divide between my wife and I when I feel like that and sometimes wonder if I want to attempt to bridge that divide anymore. It seems like so much work and effort!

[charity1]

veggiemelt,
I agree totally with most everything you said. We definitely can't become obsessive and we have to offer praise and make allowances for being human. I, too, feel that I have grown a lot since my ordeal, and have become a much stronger person. I have gotten rid of the victim mentality, but I believe I am much wiser now too, so that brings me to the part that I have to disagree with:

Men and women as christians can be a great supporter of one another, and even have a really close friendships between men are women are not an emotional affair. Sharing information about your marriage with a person of the opposite sex is not and emotional affair, however it can be the groundwork for one. And this would be where you need to procede with caution, is the intention honorable and without secrecy, or it the relationship something that feels like it should be hidden.

I believe that is exactly how my husband's affair started. He started letting the OW confide in him about her problems with her husband. She began to ask him for advice and then started comparing him to her husband, and he was so much better. The flattery went to his head. He became her knight in shining armor. Once the relationship starts to feel like it should be hidden, it is usually too late. The two involved don't want to withdraw. That is why I think there has to be strict boundaries in a marriage. I have no problem with my husband being friendly, but l do have a problem with one-on-one contact. If he had had that boundary in the first place, he wouldn't have fallen victim to satan's trap. I don't impose any boundaries on my husband that I don't observe myself. Being married doesn't stop chemistry from happening with a member of the opposite sex. Why put ourselves in that vulnerable state?

Satan took the oportunity in my weakened state and used it to turn me into an offender by way of an emotional affair.

This just emphasizes how dangerous a close "friendship" can be, and what adulterer hasn't used that term? No, we can't let ourselves become overly jealous or become a victim, I totally agree, but we can't hide our heads in the sand either. There has to be reasonable boundaries. While the red flags were flying around me, I was so determined not to become the jealous wife, that I closed my eyes to reality. I believed what I wanted to believe and ignored the truth that was right in front of me. In marriage we are to forsake all others and cling only to each other. The Bible teaches that the older women are to teach the younger women. Since the OW in my case went to church with me and my husband, she could have come to me if she needed advice in dealing with her husband, not to my husband. Unfortunately I believe the OW in my case had an agenda and that it was never really about getting advice regarding her husband, it was just a ploy used to get closer to my husband, but in any event, he didn't have to go there and shouldn't have. I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with becoming close friends with members of the opposite sex. There is too much potential for disaster in that.

[j3anjean]

Charity, thank you. I am trusting and open with my spouse. I do not monitor his time. I feel that if I treat him as though he is untrustworthy then he is going to act as such and do things in secret. He tells me that I can check his phone, his emails etc but I don't. I won't because I would hate to live with someone that had to babysit me and I am not going to do that to him.

Veggiemelt, That being said:

Men and women as christians can be a great supporter of one another, and even have a really close friendships between men are women are not an emotional affair. Sharing information about your marriage with a person of the opposite sex is not and emotional affair, however it can be the groundwork for one. And this would be where you need to procede with caution, is the intention honorable and without secrecy, or it the relationship something that feels like it should be hidden.

That is playing with fire. Why tempt the devil? Why risk it. I cannot imagine one situation where the benefit would outweigh that risk. Do not share your marital discord or concerns with someone of the opposite sex! That is laying out the welcome mat for Satan.

My husband has had 4 affairs and each and everyone started with him trying to help a friend who was in a bad relationship. Yes, that is a weakness that he has. We have identified it and we take the precautions needed to not open that door again. But this isn't just his weakness. Every single book about emotional affairs start with information about sharing your marriage issues, concerns, with the opposite sex. I was unfaithful to my husband years ago and I know the biggest attraction for me was the way he talked about his wife. I wanted that for myself. My marriage was so screwed up and he seemed happy. I didn't want him. Just that feeling of being loved. When he started sharing fears and troubles they had, I stepped in to be a good friend. I just meant to listen and help and WHAM things went to far.

I can't see why, on a board ridden with the destruction and aftermath of unfaithfulness anyone would suggest that this might be ok. On the infidelity board? Seriously?

[resecured]

veggiemelt,

I agree with most of what you have said. I do know that if I were to not see any of my husband's accomplishments that he might would fall prey again. He has told me that he will continue on battling for our marriage, even though he has failed again. He has gotten on a site that explains SA and why it takes time and that it is not something that is "banished" quickly. He is trying to enlighten me as to what SA is. I'm trying very hard to do what he is asking. I'm very hurt right now. Mark 11 tells me very clearly what I must do. I understand that I must forgive him. Period. I just need time to heal from this attack. It is very hard to erase the image of him learing from my mind. Oh, to only have the ability to erase one's mind of certain facts.

I take issue with, "Stop doing these things, they could very well be why he cheated in the first place". I assure you I have never been what you described before d-day. He will tell you himself that I was not the cause of his adulteries. He takes full blame for his own actions. That may be the case in some marriages, but not in all. As has been said on this board before, no matter what the condition of the marriage, it does not excuse the actions of someone who commits adultery. Even in the midst of my pain, I have not become clingy, nagging, whinny, needy, smothering or jealous. I do, however, have a mistrust of him, and rightly so. Does it consume me? No. I am not hindering his being a man. I am, however, not going to just stand by and allow him to do things that are harmful toward me and our marriage. God has standards for the husband, as well as the wife. I don't believe we are to lower God's standards just to pacify anyones ego, male or female.

-RJ-

[confused]

Charity...Those are great words that I agree with 100%. Sometimes we don't even know that are spouse is lacking something spiritually that we are not fulfilling (which they may have never even communicated to us) and they think they can find it in another person no matter how wrong it really is and once they fall it is very hard for them to turn back and face the truth and embarassment of their actions. I know it was true in my wife's case..she started something that she thought she could control with a teenage boy and it blew up in her face..it became much more than she ever imagined and now it's like this situation belongs on the Jerry Springer show. Anyway, I firmly believe that Men and Women should never be "close" friends, they should never confide in each other at all. I can understand some people thinking the opposite but I think it would come back to bite them eventually.

[km]

With appropriate boundaries in place (and for a person not prone to sexualize every interaction with the opposite sex), I think it is very important to be able to get advice from the opposite sex when it is needed.

Sometimes there has to be a degree of confidentiality in such advice seeking.

The opposite sex is suficiently aline and incomprehensible that we need a bit of inside information from the other side in order to make a bit of sense of our relationships. I can't treat my wife like one of the guys, and she can't interact with me as if I were one of her girlfiends. It wouldn't work at all. We need insights from the other side (places like this forum, for example, or a friend that we can talk to while observing boundaries).

[j3anjean]

and even have a really close friendships between men are women

Define close friendship? Define the boundaries of such a friendship?

I have friends, both male & female, at church, at work, whom I can talk and laugh with. When my dog died, Alan, the maintanence guy gave me a hug. When he is having a bad day he will come into my office and vent for 20 minutes because he knows I will listen and not judge. Pete from our small group cracks jokes with me constantly, He is my husbands best buddy. He sends me emails and offers to pray with me when I need it. He always hugs me. Jim, from my Sunday School class is prone to pulling me aside, when he sees me and discussing some spiritual or biblical question. He loves a good debate and we have talked about some pretty deep stuff-including our struggles and weaknesses. These are just some examples and I consider these guys friends-close friends. I guess the way the original post was worded left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

This is how I broke it down and maybe I am sensitive because of where it is posted.
Don't be jealous. Don't smother him. Give him free reign and if he wants to buddy up with the gals-well, if that troubles you at all, then you are being insecure. (If your radar is flashing like a drunk bum in a raincoat-well that is your issue not his) If you advise him that it isn't making you comfortable, well that right there will justify his affair. If he wants to share his marital woes-or God love him, your shortcomings as a wife, with Jill at the office or Mary at the bar or Sue on worship team, well suck it up. Sure it's risky but what's the worst that can happen? And hey, if anything DOES happen, well it was probably because you were too suspicious of the poor dear's good intentions.

I don't mean to be harsh but this was posted on the INFIDELITY board. These folks already have issues with boundaries and trust. Whether it is because they were the betrayer or the betrayed.

[resecured]

Amen sister!!!!!!!

[veggiemelt]

My marriage was so screwed up and he seemed happy. I didn't want him. Just that feeling of being loved. When he started sharing fears and troubles they had, I stepped in to be a good friend. I just meant to listen and help and WHAM things went to far.

When a man wants advice on how to romance his wife, what to buy her, where to take her, etc. He is not going to turn to another man, he is going to turn to a woman. Likewise, a woman will ask the opinion of a man when attempting to do something pleasing for her husband. This is where I am talking about those brother/sister christian relationships, where we need the insight or opinion of the opposite sex. Our own brothers, sisters, cousins even father and mothers are a safe place for this type of communication as well as problem solving advice - these relationships are naturally platonic.

However, I think this is where we need to look to Jesus and his relationships with women. You see, Jesus was safe in having close relationships with women because even though he was male, he controlled his temptation. I know that there are a fair amount of women who set out to steal another woman's husband, but most of us are just looking for a guy to tell us how we can relate better to our husband. Likewise, when we approached like this, we just want to be kind and listen as a friend and help. The problem or temptation doesn't lie in the situation, it lies in the weaker of the two parties. And it is true that you cannot really see the problem until it is too late.

However, a woman being afraid of her husband's casual relationships or friendships is also a problem. Your fear is not going to stop him from doing it again. He has to catch himself, a man who is truly repententant and tryin to change will continue to feel within himself when his actions might be wrong. God puts that filter in us when we open our hearts to his guidance. What I am saying is, put your trust in God and pray for your husband - allow God to show your husband where he needs to draw the line. If you are wanting to give your husband a little more support because you fear that he is too weak, then rather then subjecting him to your watchful eye, ask him to take an accountability partner. This is a great way to allow him to determine the difference between respectful behavior and sin from the perspective of his own gender.

We as women do not understand men anymore then they understand us. The insight into the opposite sex is a valuable and worthy asset to all marriages. We all need to learn how to better understand and relate to our mate. Someone here pointed out that the older women or men in our church are supposed to provide this role, and I agree. However, I have yet to find an elderly women in my church who will even readily discuss anything with regard to the sexual or personal nature of men. In Bible studies, all they want to talk about is everything that he has done wrong over the past 50 years.

If there were more safe places or avenues for men and women to turn for advice on dealing with relationships from the point of view of the opposite gender, there would in deed be less emotional affairs. But most of the time, the best approach is to give the advice or hear the questions, keep it in a public place, and don't allow the relationship to continue on an intimate conversation level.

One more thing, intimate conversation is not the most common cause of emotional affairs, it is actually the feeling of having fun with another person who makes you feel at ease, happy, or relaxed in their presence. Essentially the making of a friendship, should we be afraid of all or our friends? If this is true, we would never have mixed bowling leagues, mixed golf teams, mixed bridge partners, or any other type of activity where a male and female interact as partners in a team, or as friends. Now, that would truly be sad.

Once again, I will stand by my point, if your partner needs watching, then pray for your partner and find another person to help them fight their battle. Stand strong and put your faith in God and your trust in your partner and if you find yourself in a place where your partner can never be trusted, maybe God isn't really asking you to stay with them.

[j3anjean]

One more thing, intimate conversation is not the most common cause of emotional affairs, it is actually the feeling of having fun with another person who makes you feel at ease, happy, or relaxed in their presence.

I heartily disagree. Intimate conversation is a precursor to an emotional affair. You can "have fun" with your bowling league but that doesn't make you likely to sleep with them. You can tell your opposite coworker that your spouse isn't fulfilling your needs and that is an invitation

[veggiemelt]

j3 - where should it have been posted. It is about infidelity - emotional affairs are infidelity and porn combined with masturbation is a form of infidelity. These women are either the victoms of a real affair or another form of infidelity and these men are victoms of similar circumstances. My point is the panic that strikes and pushes the victom into behaviors that only worsen the situation.

Your post about, your male friends, just makes my point. These relationships are important to both men and women. There absolutely has to be an element of trust and respect in a marriage that continues to allow these male/female relationships, even when someone has been betrayed.
If a man who has had affair decides on his own that he cannot talk to other women, then that is a boundary he has set for himself. But for his wife to tell him that, is too restrictive. It is not her place, no matter what, to decide for him where his temptations lie. Yes, he owes her a curtain amount of respect, and she has the right to express reasonable concern in what things might make her feel vulnerable, but we have to be also given the space to be ourselves no matter which side we are on.

[j3anjean]

One more thing, intimate conversation is not the most common cause of emotional affairs, it is actually the feeling of having fun with another person who makes you feel at ease, happy, or relaxed in their presence.

I heartily disagree. Intimate conversation is a precursor to an emotional affair. You can "have fun" with your bowling league but that doesn't make you likely to sleep with them. You can tell your opposite coworker that your spouse isn't fulfilling your needs and that is an invitation.

Intimate: Defined as Marked by close acquaintance, association, or familiarity.
Relating to or indicative of one's deepest nature: intimate prayers.
Essential; innermost: the intimate structure of matter.
Marked by informality and privacy: an intimate nightclub.
Very personal; private: an intimate letter.
Of or involved in a sexual relationship.

I am not speaking from a devils advocate philisophocal point of view. I am speaking from hard earned, cold experiance.

Again I ask you, why risk it? Why tempt the devil?