Growthtrac Community

[rosesweet]

This is my first post, I'm a little nervous. Here goes. My husband wants mainly oral sex or manual stimulation over making love. I feel like my body is not enough for him. I enjoy lovemaking. I feel like this has hurt our marriage in many ways. We have tallked about it but he has said it is the ultimate in giving & makes hi m feel loved because I do this for him. I guess what it boils down to is that I feel rejected, and somewat used. I'm at a lose. We are struggling in other areas too,Any suggestons? prayers are needed & appreciated.

[km]

You're not entirely clear about your situation (and one can convey more clarity without being innappropriate).

There are a few thoughts that come to mind:

1. IF you generally do not accomodate him as to orally or manually stimulating him (or much less than he wants), but conventional intercourse is freely available, then you are conditioning him to focus on what he can't have. Like dieting by cutting out desert, you come to focus on desert you didn't get and not on the good meal you did. The sense of deprivation crowds out the satisfaction. If I were regularly getting an adequate (by my standards) range of activity, I would not be as focused on it.

2. IF he just wants to be stimulated, and does not give as much or more than he gets, then he is simply being a selfish jerk (and/or is woefully ignorant about lovemaking).

3. IF he is generous about giving stimulation too, it may be some combination of simply really, really enjoying it and/or excessive concern with making sure you're climaxing too (some men are aware that conventionally intercourse often isn't enough for a woman to climax - or they have porn movie derived or ego driven ideas that women must climax many, many times each session). Some real conversation about needs and wants would be in order.

[rosesweet]

km, Thanks for the reply, guess I do need to give more info. I do give him what he wants at least every other time which is about every 3 days. I am not getting what feels like a whole lot in return, feel frustrated. I do not feel like my body is enough for him. I need to go now, will try to clarify things more later. Again thank you.

[km]

It sounds then as if he is being inconsiderate of your needs/wants/desires - recieving (largely) everything he wants, on a schedule to his liking, but not giving you what you need/want/desire - or else he is ignorant as to those needs/wants/desires.

As you prepare to give a little better detail, give some thought as to which of the above do you think his problem is?

[SAM]

As difficult as it is, it is important to have open discussion with your husband about your needs and what is a concern to you. Otherwise, resentment will build and you don't want that. Do not have this discussion while in the middle of intimacy - it needs to be done outside the bedroom.

[veggiemelt]

Rosie,
Is your husband stressed in other areas of his life, money worries, etc that are placing a huge burden on his shoulders?
Second, if there are other problems, is he shouldering the burden and leaving you out of trying to protect you from them?
It sounds a little like he is looking for release as a means of relieving stress, this can manifest itself as appearing to be a very selfish behavior. He is looking to you to "provide" for him as he is feeling too much pressure as the provider in the rest of your lives.

Men are wired to be providers in every aspect of life, except for sex. That is the one area where women are wired to be providers, we are wired to "fill" a need, regardless of our own satisfaction. Even when a man feels driven or inclined to give us pleasure, it is still to fulfill a part of his own satisfaction. Even bringing a woman to orgasm is not an unselfish act. I mean no disrespect in saying that and yes guys, we do appreciate it. But, I am pointing that out to help you understand that there are differences in what a man will expect or seek when they are turning to sexual release to relieve stress or emotional problems. In order to compensate for what stress or emotional problems are doing to their ego, a man will either look to fill his need for masculinity by either putting tremendous pressure on himself to pleasure a woman, or he will look to a woman to give solely to him. Either way it is actually filling a need to compensate for another area of his life. Remember, what sex is to a man is entirely different then what it is to us as a female. Almost any problem in the life of a male can manifest as unusual or uncharacteristic sexual behavior.

It appears that your husband is asking you to "give" unselfishly to him because he needs to feel loved by you. I understand that you feel that it is something about you or your body, but from personal experience, I can tell you that when a man becomes selfish and needy and it manifests as a sexual response, it honestly has absolutely nothing to do with you. He obviously loves and trusts you very much, or he would not allow you to be a part of the picture at all. In other words, alot of men would turn away from their wives and resort to porn for selfish satisfaction, he is still connecting with you and wanting to feel loved by you, that is a very positive sign.

If this is a fairly recent change, I would just try to give him the attention he needs and don't ask for anything, when he stops feeling pressured, he will probably start to focus more on you. Honest conversation is a good thing, however, maybe you could start by trying to find out what is really behind the issue, like stress or something. From personal experience, I can tell you, you might get alot further not talking about the bedroom issues and just trying to get him to tell you what is on
his mind. Of course if is persists, at some point, it does need to be discussed openly without accusation or pressure. But from your description - "he wants to feel loved", it sounds like an outside issue and when that issue it corrected, your bedroom issues will most likely slowly start to mend on their own.

For now, just pray for him, be patient, be fully giving of yourself, and be supportive of him in all things and make him feel safe and accepted and respected, and when he feels like talking - just be quite and listen.

[km]

I think veggiemelt has a lot of very good points there. I relate to many of them as a man (and recognize some of them in myself). I might not agree with a general statment that men giving pleasure is not so much a giving thing as an ego thing.

I see it as both - I get an ego boost out of her pleasure, but I do like her to be experiencing pleasure apart from the ego boost I get from it - but that is something that will vary widely from man to man and there is some degree of validity to the point even where I quibble with the balance point veggiemelt assigns to it.

[veggiemelt]

Oh how I have missed this forum!
km - LOL - I was counting on the opposition from you as to the "giving Pleasure" statement.
And you are correct, under normal circumstances, one would both want to give and receive equally for personal gain and unselfishly.
However, when sex is being used as a way to try to fill something that is lacking in yourself, it becomes entirely selfish in nature. In Rosie's case, he is asking her to give entirely to him. In my own circumstances, whatever is "given" to me is not for my benefit, it is for his. That is what I was referring to.

Rosie, you cannot place blame onto yourself, there is most likely nothing lacking in you. There is something lacking in him and he is looking to you to make him feel good about himself. Understanding that there are probably underlying issues and realizing that your body is not the source of the problem is the best way for you to come to a place where you can help him and heal your relationship in all areas.

Focusing on what is happening in your bedroom is only going to make you feel bad about yourself as you have already discovered. Most problems in the bedroom are driven by an outside source, other relationship issues, other work or life issues and personal issues with one or both partners. Placing blame on yourself, questioning yourself, and all of the feelings of inadequecy that come along with it just tend to mask the real problems and create more problems. Satan loves stuff like this, and he uses it to confuse us and keep us from being healthy christians and happy partners. Don't let him get into your head.

The fastest road to recovery, healing, and change for both of you and for you marriage, is for you to be strong and confident and to support your husband and show him understanding. I am not suggesting that you allow yourself to be taken advantage of, that is never a good thing. However, if you can pray and listen for God to help you see where the real issues are, then you can support him through growth and change. And if you see a need for improvement in yourself in any areas of your own life, they will become more clear if you can remove the sexual issues from your mind.

My husband and I have been through alot in over 25 years together and I can tell you that every single problem we have ever encountered has ended up one way or another effecting our physical relationship in terms of intimacy, satisfaction, frequency, and quality as well as all other forms of physical affection. Every problem effects my husband on this level and it has confused me for years. In the end, I always end up realizing that affection and sex was not the real issue, even though it becomes the most visible and most difficult part of it all for me. As women, we need the physical attention and affection in our relationship to carry us and fill us emotionally, when it is lacking in some form, it becomes difficult for us to function and sometimes to even think clearly. We cannot change how our husband's deal with stress or other emotional or mental issues, that is between them and God, but we can choose to see ourselves through God's eyes and know that we are worthy of love and affection even though our husband's actions can make us feel like we are less then worthy. We have to stay strong and be faithful to God and to our marriage and support our husband's through their bizzaar and even sometimes painful behavior.

He needs you Rosie, find out what it is that he is really looking for or lacking in his life and support him in that. And do your very best to become all that God wants you to be as a Christian, as a woman, and as a wife. I'm praying for you.

[rosesweet]

I am so thankful for all the input I'm getting from all of you. In reading your posts I am looking at things in a different light, my hubby is a pretty needy person & has had a lot of hurt from his past. I (in thinking about it) do think he is looking for me to give more of myself to him, in an emotional way. You see I have no problem with giving sexually(just the thing I wrote about, for a short time) I tend to be ,well, more along the lines of a man in that area and think that is partly why I was feeling so inadequate. My womanhood is pretty connected to sex. I feel rejected if he is not in the mood for some reason. That's a whole issue in its self . We are really stuggling in a lot of areas right now . I am at a loss as to what to do. That is why I wrote. Just please continue to pray and keep sharing your insights, also ask questions. I will try to answer them. May the Lord bless you richly! If I seem like I am confused I am andI have not been getting much sleep so if am not making sense at any point just let me know. Again, Thank you.

[rdsmith3]

Believe it or not, not all men are motivated solely by selfish desires. Some of us have humble, unselfish, altruistic motives, and desire to please both God and our wives.

From a biblical perspective, John Piper published something yesterday that is helpful. You can find it at
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2009/3869_Sexual_Intimacy_and_the_Rights_Over_a_Spouses_Body_in_Marriage/

Sexual Intimacy and the Rights Over a Spouse's Body in Marriage
Thoughts on the Application of 1 Corinthians 7:3–5

By John Piper April 29, 2009

1 Corinthians 7:3-5

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

This is paradoxical counsel to married couples, and I think Paul knows it. It does not give either spouse the right to demand certain sexual acts from the other that he or she does not want to give. It is more complex than that. Follow the thought with me.

What is paradoxical and delicate about this text is that logically it doesn’t work. What it does is call the couple to a profound effort to please the other without settling who will wind up getting the most pleasure, especially because each person will get pleasure in not asking the other to do what the other finds unpleasurable.

Here’s what I mean. If her body is his and his body is hers and each has authority over the other’s body, then he has the authority to ask her to do something he would find pleasurable, and she has the authority over his body to ask that he increase her pleasure by not asking that she do that.

Stalemate.

This is real life. I have dealt with it in my own marriage, and I have seen it in many couples. Logically, the text leads to stalemate. And I think Paul knew it. He was leading them beyond logic in this matter.

This is analogous to Romans 12:10 where Paul tells us, “Outdo one another in showing honor.” I will try to honor you and you will try to honor me, and who will have the greater joy of honoring the other more? It is a mysterious dance of love in the Christian community as we lay down our rights and our demands, and seek to outdo one another not in what we can get but in what we can give.

Similarly in marriage. We are seeking mainly to please the other. She wants to please him, and so is prone to give what he desires. He wants to please her, and so is prone not to demand what she finds unpleasant to give. And vice versa.

Here’s one way that the paradox is broken.

The leadership of the husband is defined by Paul not mainly as demanding his rights but as laying down his life for the good of his wife (Ephesians 5:25). Therefore, the predominant resolution of the sexual paradox is that the husband gently and tenderly takes the lead in seeking to maximize his wife’s pleasure, taking her longings deeply into account, rather than pressuring her to adapt to his.

The practical application of 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 is not resolved by logic or taking turns or male dominance or female submission. It is resolved in the mystery of love that discovers even here, when our physical pleasure is more prominent than anywhere else, “It is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35). There is a holy and humble and self-sacrificing competition to make the other maximally glad. The logical stalemate is broken by the miracle of grace: With God all things are possible.

Living the mystery of love with you,

Pastor John

[km]

It does not give either spouse the right to demand certain sexual acts from the other that he or she does not want to give. It is more complex than that.

Well, much of Christianity is a matter of paradox in balance (we are saved solely by God's work, but bear responsibility for our own unsaved sinful condition, etc, etc,).

I see it as that we do have a right to demand - but a concurrent command not to do it. If both partners engage in the race to outdo each other in pleasing their partner - then both stretch their limits in service of the other and both are greatly happier. I have seen this in practice at times - I know that I want far more than she'll ever be comfortable giving (we're heavily mismatched in tis area) but I don't "demand" and I am really touched on those occasions where she makes any effort to push her boundaries a bit (even though there remains a hugh gulf to where I'd like to be).

[km]

veggiemelt is also right on about men using sex to fill any number of emotional needs (lonely, stressed, happy, sad, feeling empty, feeling full, celebrating, grieving - just about anything). And a lot of it can be reactions to lifelong issues, predating and apart from any adult relationship. Men often have a compeling need for sex as either a release or a celebration of just about any sort of feeling or emotion we might have.

We men are essentially simple creatures - much like your dog. Our phases are hungry, sleepy and horny (which can overlap). nuance is not our forte.

Think of us emotionally as the basic Crayola box (what is it - 5 or 6 bright, bold colors? red, green, blue, yellow, orange - that's it) whereas women, emotionally, are the deluxe mega Crayola box (with periwinkle and burnt sierra and fuscia and peach, etc.)

[SAM]

km - I like your crayola box analogy.

rd - I like the "Message" version of 1 Corinthians 7:3-6. It's one we talked about in our couples group last night.

Marriage is not a place to "stand up for your rights." Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out.

Serving my husband, or anyone for that matter, is not always pleasant - is not always when I want it to be - but it's something God wants me to do anyway... from my heart, with grace, and with love. When I 'refuse' to do so, (to me) it becomes a matter of disobedience to God.

[rdsmith3]

It does not give either spouse the right to demand certain sexual acts from the other that he or she does not want to give. It is more complex than that.

I see it as that we do have a right to demand - but a concurrent command not to do it.

I think it hinges on the word "demand".

Demand (from Merriam-Webster)

1: to ask or call for with authority : claim as due or just <demanded to see a lawyer>
2: to call for urgently, peremptorily, or insistently <demanded that the rioters disperse>
3 a: to ask authoritatively or earnestly to be informed of <demand the reason for the dismissal> b: to require to come : summon

The use of authority is sprinkled throughout these definitions. A demand comes from one who has a position of power. If I demand certain sexual acts, with authority and power, I think that is wrong and not within the spirit of the 1 Cor 7 scripture quoted above.

Said another way, if we go ahead a few chapters and paraphrase 1 Cor 10:23, it may be lawful for me to demand my wife do certain things, but it is not helpful.

[km]

Perhaps we're sseing it the same - but the paradox inhibits the expression.

I have just such a claim of authority over her body (as she does over mine). But I am commanded not to use that authority selfishly.