Growthtrac Community

[rdsmith3]

veggiemelt

I can really empathize with your dilemma, and there are some similarities to my marriage.

How much do I change? For example, we have virtually no physical intimacy in our marriage. Despite prayers, it has not changed. We have talked about it, and I have heard her side of the story, but she will not budge from her (IMO distorted) personal feelings. So I have to surrender this, but I feel that my sexuality is part of who I am, and I get to a point where I have to ask God to suppress desires that are an integral part of being a man.

I love my wife, but I do not believe she truly loves me. I think she is just not capable of it because I do not think she truly believes that God loves her. If she can not trust that God loves her, how can she give to, or receive love from, other people?

[veggiemelt]

I hear what you are saying Sam and I know it all too well. His over committment to work and success and financial stability is about 80% of the problem, it is where his mind is almost 24/7 and there is little room for anything else. This is a huge part of what I am talking about when I say that I cannot ask for anything, as the reaction is just bad. The reason he does not want me to ask for anything, - time, attention, money and especially his undivided attention or a conversation that is not about work, money or one of the concerns on his mind - is because he cannot give those things to me. And he cannot give me time, attention, etc. because his mind is consumed, literally consumed. The only time he is not thinking about those things is when he is watching TV, which is pretty much a place where he turns to for several hours every day. I have tried many, many times to talk to him about finding a place of balance between everything in his life, but he is very defensive about it and it usually ends in a fight where he gets angry and says I don't care about what he is trying to do for us and that I am not supportive of him. I do not see how he can say that I am unsupportive as I do whatever he asks of me, I hardly ever ask for anything, and I lift him up as much as I can, I also give him as much affection as he asks or needs and rarely ask for anything in return.
(I am speaking of affection that is of a nurturing nature as that is what he wants almost constantly from me).

The other 20% of the problem is a twisted mess of sexual immorality issues that he has had since before we were even together, and the lack of maturity to ever address them or even admit they were wrong (some progress has been made here in the past year, however it is with an er of resentment and he has yet to admit that it was wrong or to see the damage it has caused for either of us in our lives,) those morality issues, combined with some childhood issues and his problems with holding a grudge, holding resentment, and the inability to see fault or wrong in himself have caused alot of problems and make resolution extremely slow and difficult, but once again, I have seem some progress here which I thank God for.

And circling the entire picture is the very odd relationship he has with God, which seems to be as much of a fight as anything else, but it is rare that he speaks to me about his faith. He is more apt to talk about Christ or share his faith with a total stranger then to have a conversation about faith or what God is doing in our lives with me. I am kept completely at arms length in that area as well. That is probably the most serious of our problems and why honestly that we even have most of these problems. I don't honestly believe that my husband even knows what God wants for us in our marriage, it seems to be the absolute last thing he has any interest in, even though I have tried to bring something into our lives from many different angles that he would accept as a guideline to explore or at least look at. My husband knows Christ and his desciples like the back of his hand, but for some reason - anything to do with marriage or sexual morality seems to just not click in any way with him - I'm not sure if he thinks the rules do not apply to him, or if he chooses to simply ignore them and take God's word at his convenience.

I have said alot on this thread, and in light of the fact that I do see my husband trying to change and making progress and I do see God working in his life and I do feel us growing and moving toward something good, I feel a little bad about much of what I have said. None the less, I feel inclined again this morning to talk a little more about the division in my marriage and what has caused it.

Charity spoke yesterday of honor and cherish and it made me think again about why I have not really felt that from my husband and why I continue to have issues of mistrust. My husband has a very flirtatious personality, he has always been that way. It can be charming, and he acts that way around pretty much all women - except for me. It is very rare that it is directed at me, extremely rare in fact. Also, as I have said before, he has alot of close relationships with women, most of them involve sexually explicit enuendos, and sexual jokes and comments. He once again rarely interacts this way with me.
There was a time when he did, but over the years it has moved more and more away from me and more and more toward other women. Once again, I will say that I have seen a few signs of it beginning to return to my direction, but it is brief and still very rare.

I do not know with certainly that my husband has never cheated on me, in fact there have been many, many times when I have had my doubts. However, I have to believe him as it is the one thing that I honestly think that he would never do. I do however think he has in fact had many affairs of the heart, relationships that got way too close and I believe that is much of where he has pushed me away. I do not think that he has ever seen it as betrayal, as the only measure of cheating in his mind has always been physically sleeping with another woman - that would be cheating to him. However, when I formed a close relationship with another man, much like the ones that he has had numberous times, his standards for what was cheating changed. I also believe that if he had ever cheated on me that he would absolutely never admit to it, not only because he knows that I have enough respect for myself that I would probably leave him, but also because I am not sure he could deal with the pain it would cause me. My husband has this bizzaar way of masking the truth in his own mind - if he doesn't ever say it, then it is not a lie or even deception. If it is hidden and not discovered, then in his mind, it isn't really wrong. So, that causes me to question alot of things, especially considering the things that he has lied to me about, which I will not go into here, but let's just say alot of them were not only immoral, but they were illegal and dangerous to my family.
He never felt guilty for hiding them from me, he claims that it was my fault that he hid them, because I would have gotton mad about it, so hiding it was the right thing to do.

Like I have said before, my husband really is a good guy, but he has always been a little immature - what I think I am really finally seeing after all these years is more so then anything - he is finally beginning to grow up and accept responsibility as an adult, rather then to act like a child and blame everyone else for all of his problems. I think God is working in him and he is beginning to grow up spiritually as well, I believe that is the biggest reason for his change in attitude toward sexual morality, he is accepting God's word in that - the resentment that remains there towards me, is well another matter but something I believe in time will repair. I have chosen to speak again here today, not to bash my husband, but to try to speak honestly about things that I have gotten past, or put aside, but never really completely forgiven. I would like to let all of this go and see my husband in a new light so that I can accept his changes without doubt or mistrust. And in talking through much of this, I can see that maybe much more of the obstacles for progression at this point maybe actually lie in me. In my lack of trust and in my doubt as he has fooled me just to win me over so many times before. Maybe this time around it is for real and not just another selfish game he is playing with me. I want to let go and trust him, I really do - but I am really, really scared.
Thanks once again for a place to speak honestly and for the support here. Any feedback is appreciated.

[charity1]

veggiemelt,

Charity, I did not mean to offend you or sound so defensive, if it comes across that way, I am sorry for the tone. I do appreciate what you are saying and you have actually made me think that there is a possibility that I have not given him enough credit in his efforts to change as I do quite possibly still harbor some resentment toward him. You are right, in that once a spouse has been betrayed, it takes alot to regain that trust, and the effort you expect to see from that person in order for them to deserve that trust.

You did not offend me, and I didn't mean to offend you. The one thing I love about this forum is that it is so open and honest. Everybody on here has everybody else's best interest at heart. I loved reading all of your posts after mine. You are obviously doing some soul searching both on your part and trying to understand your husband's part. That is all I was wanting you to do. Keep praying. It sounds like there is progress being made on both your parts.

[SAM]

I would like to let all of this go and see my husband in a new light so that I can accept his changes without doubt or mistrust. And in talking through much of this, I can see that maybe much more of the obstacles for progression at this point maybe actually lie in me.

This is the most insightful part of your posts. Read it to yourself again... and again.

Pray the following: Lord, thank you for changing my husband into a man who hungers for you.

When you believe that prayer, you believe God has already started the process.

[SAM]

Something I came across in my Santuary Bible this morning that I thought would be good to share -

[Control is] something every wife at times wishes she could have in reality - especially when circumstances swerve dizzyingly out of reach, breaking through our emotional defenses...

When is comes to our husband, of course we do everything in our power to protect him from hurt and harm. The number of our husband's life events and experiences that we may influence but can't ultimately control, however, is much larger than we are willing to admit. When tempted to forget this fact, it is helpful to reflect on the following noteworthy list:

Events, Experiences, and Personal Traits That I May Influence - But Can't Control - In My Husband's Life

- his personality and temperament
- his aptitudes, skills, and abilities
- his emotional, social, and spiritual growth...
- his conversion and devotion to Christ
- his level of career achievement...
- his financial and social status
- the use of his gifts and talents
- his size, appearance, and fitness level
- his decisions to engage in healthy or unhealthy habits: diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol use, overworking,
overspending, and so on
- his passions, preferences, and personal tastes
- his peer-group choices
- his state of happiness and emotional well-being

Instead of seeking control, we can recognize God's handiwork in every moment, at each state of life, whether it's painful or pleasurable, easy or difficult, frustrating or satisfying... Though we can't view the entire picture yet, we can rest in the assurance that God faithfully loves our husband and is tenderly working for his good, even in the tiniest details. The sovereign Painter is creating a priceless masterpiece. We can trust Him to complete His job - perfectly.

By Debra Evans, from Blessing Your Husband (Tyndale, 2003) pgs 142-143

[km]

I think it is hard to deal with a pouse who is totally resistant (and uncooperative) as to personal change.

In such situations, I think we tend to fall into an enabling scenario so as to try to keep the peace (because constant conflict is wearying and discouraging).

Hang in there. And stay open to the idea that you may need different approaches or routes to change.

[veggiemelt]

rd - I was thinking about what you said about your wife and how she stands without budging on her own platform, refusing to make any conform. I am curious, does she feel that it is right for every woman to withhold intimacy, or does she just feel that because of her history that she has other issues that she is asking you to consider, respect and adapt to. I do not think that God wants men or women to withhold affection in a marriage, but I think that he does allow for leniency and expect understanding when other challenges push things out of the realm of normal.

I feel bad for you as you seem like a pretty decent guy and it is very obvious that you love her and that many of her attitudes pain you, but you seem to be really patient with her. I am wondering if you truly believe that she is capable of changing, or if you have just grown to accept what you have been asked to live with. You do not seem to hold much resentment toward her, it appears more that you struggle some times in the fact that God has put you in a relationship where you have to be left without fulfillment in areas of your life. In short, you are a man and obviously that cannot be changed. So any adaptation is really putting your in a place where some part of who you are must be left unfulfilled. Do you think according to God's word and his plan for your marriage, that he is leading her to change, or that he is leading you to come to a place of acceptance and find peace in that?

My husband has personal issues, that keep him at a distance from me. It effects all areas of my life. In my eyes, I think some of the things could easily be changed and that he is just stubborn and self absorbed, I think there are other things that would be difficult for him to change and I am not sure that it is fair to even ask that change of him, as though he could be healed through faith and/or medication, It would be a long and difficult journey that he does not have the ability at this time in his life to endure. To me, it is a matter of compromise, willingly coming forward and making the simple changes because they are ultimately better for him and would in fact make him a happier person. As well as a stronger Christian, and a more complete husband. This is some of the change that I see now, which I am happy for, willing continued committment to that by his own choice would be enough to make me feel very happy. In other words, enthusiasm in the matter as a choice, rather then resistant complacency out of obligation. The harder things, I am willing to and have actually already accepted though sometimes they pose a personal challenge.

I asked the question eariler, how much to do we give up in the best interest of our spouse. The answer I think that God has given me is - to willing give, or give up what I can and do it with a loving heart. But stand and continue to ask for what I need and accept as much or as little in the moment with an open and understanding mind.

Thanks to everyone for your comments here. You are all in deed a blessing.

[rdsmith3]

rd - I was thinking about what you said about your wife and how she stands without budging on her own platform, refusing to make any conform. I am curious, does she feel that it is right for every woman to withhold intimacy, or does she just feel that because of her history that she has other issues that she is asking you to consider, respect and adapt to. I do not think that God wants men or women to withhold affection in a marriage, but I think that he does allow for leniency and expect understanding when other challenges push things out of the realm of normal.

I feel bad for you as you seem like a pretty decent guy and it is very obvious that you love her and that many of her attitudes pain you, but you seem to be really patient with her. I am wondering if you truly believe that she is capable of changing, or if you have just grown to accept what you have been asked to live with. You do not seem to hold much resentment toward her, it appears more that you struggle some times in the fact that God has put you in a relationship where you have to be left without fulfillment in areas of your life. In short, you are a man and obviously that cannot be changed. So any adaptation is really putting your in a place where some part of who you are must be left unfulfilled. Do you think according to God's word and his plan for your marriage, that he is leading her to change, or that he is leading you to come to a place of acceptance and find peace in that?

Veggiemelt

Thanks for the thoughts. It is a great question -- one that I struggle with. The answer is not simple.

For me, I believe that God wants me to learn to turn to Him first for love. Spiritual intimacy with Him has to come before physical and emotional intimacy with my wife. In other words, God wants me to trust Him completely to meet my needs. 2 Corinthians 12:9 “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

From that perspective, I have to accept that she may never change.

At the same time, I believe that my wife has some very distorted thoughts, and I pray for her to see God's truth more clearly than she does now. For example, she has recently been bombarded with messages on forgiveness (e.g. in our small group, sermons, devotionals, etc.). She knows in her head that she is supposed to forgive, but she claims that she is unable to do it. If she has asked God to help her forgive, and the sovereign God has not chosen to zap her and erase all feelings of anger, bitternes, resentment and unforgiveness, then she believe there is nothing left for her to do. Intellectually, she has heard sermons that she has to lead her feelings, not the other way around. She has heard that forgiveness involves daily choices, but she protests that she does not know how to do it. She is expecting that God will produce some dramatic, sudden change in her, and she is waiting for God to do the work. She does not seem to get that He expects her to nibble at this day by day, and that most of our growth in life comes in these small steps.

She is fighting God because she is angry at Him. She has a distorted relationship with the heavenly Father because of issues with her earthly father. This anger carries over to me. Our lack of physical intimacy is largely because she is angry at men and does not trust men, IMO. Of course, part of the problem lies with me, and I have hurt her, but then we get back to the forgiveness.

I care about her and love her, and I really want her to have a better relationship with God.

[SAM]

Recently, in terms of God's healing, I was told to thank God for already working in my life and the lives of others rather than hoping that he will or wishing that he will. The difference is a prayer of trust and confidence in our Almighty God.

Example: God thank you for healing my friend Tammy.

Instead of: God, please heal Tammy.

I started praying differently this past week.

God, thank you for healing the heart of RD's wife. Thank you for working in her spirit and creating the knowledge of forgiveness.

RD - our God is always at work in healing wounded hearts.

[rdsmith3]

RD - our God is always at work in healing wounded hearts.

Sam,

Very true. I get impatient. However, a very important issue is that my wife's anger, and the related behaviors, affect the kids. One child, in particular, is subject to angry outburst at the least little thing. He huffs and puffs and yells, and then stomps off in a very dramatic fashion. Another child is afraid of communicating with her, I believe, but he does have his own issues with communication.

Also, all of the children are not seeing a role model of a good marriage. There is not a legacy, as you mentioned in a different topic.

So it is not just a matter of me wishing that she would change. Her anger and unforgiveness are causing a lot of collateral damage in the family.

I know that she realizes this, and feels extremely guilty about it, but her behavior continues.

Maybe a more positive way of looking at this is that God has blessed her with so many fine qualities. She is holding herself back, though, by her obsessions with hurts from the past. I see the tremendous potential she has to bless the lives of other people, but she is driving through life by looking in the rear view mirror.

[SAM]

Does she see how her anger affects the kids?

[rdsmith3]

Does she see how her anger affects the kids?

Yes, she does. I have tried to talk to her about it. If I say anything about it, no matter how respectful I think I am saying it (and I do not always succeed at that), she will claim that I am saying things to put her down; using God against her; being judgmental; etc. She says she does not trust me because I point out things about her behavior. It is a real quandary for me. I believe her guilt makes her resent me bringing up any possible words or behaviors of hers.

[SAM]

Have family members or friends noticed it?
If so, are they loving Christians that would be able to speak truth into her life?

[rdsmith3]

Have family members or friends noticed it?
If so, are they loving Christians that would be able to speak truth into her life?

She is well aware of her anger issue and its effects on the marriage and the children. She would not react well at all to someone telling her that she has an issue to resolve.

She knows what she should do, but she has not changed much in the six years we have been married. She has stopped throwing phones, which has saved us some money She has stopped trashing my belongings. So there has been some progress ... but not a lot.

[charity1]

I really believe that whenever we can't forgive, it is because we aren't willing. I know when I first started praying for the ability to forgive my husband, all I wanted was relief from my pain. I knew it would take forgiveness for me to feel better and for me to be right with God, but I still wanted to hang onto my bitterness, resentment and anger because I felt like I had every right to feel that way and that if I forgave my husband, I was saying what he did was ok. I finally had to come to realize that it wasn't ok, and my forgiving him wouldn't make it ok. Accepting that it happened and that it couldn't be undone is a lot different from saying it was ok. We expect God to miraculously take away our pain and resentment, but we have to be willing to hand it over to Him, so that He can. He doesn't wrestle it away from us! So often we want to believe that God isn't answering our prayers when in fact we are standing in His way.