Growthtrac Community

[veggiemelt]

You want an honest female opintion dw - the first part of the letter was beautiful and heartwarming and seemed really honest and loving - like poetry and probably exactly what she wants to hear. But the minute you brought up the kids the tone changed, and it went down hill from there. By the end it sounded like you were just doing it for the kids and it was going to be a chore rather then a choice - thus making the first part of the letter sound like bulls**t to try to win her over.

You started out on the right tract, but I think you might have left it in a really bad place.
If my husband would have given me this letter, I would have melted at the first part and been ready to forgive all, but by the end, I would have been ready to pack up and go. Sorry if that makes you feel bad, just being honest.

[dwk]

You would have been ready to pack up and leave? Interesting answer.... At least I have made it known strongly and nicely that I am interested in getting help for me, for her, for both, etc.

[dwk]

maybe u all can read her letter and see what u think... she is planning on moving out in July

"I’m sorry that it has taken me so long to respond. I have been feeling a lot of different things for the past few years and it has been really hard for me to figure things out in my own head. I don’t know why I feel the way I do about some things but it is what it is and I have been searching to see who I really am and what I need to be happy. It’s hard because I can’t put my finger on any specific thing that is causing me to be the way I am which in turn makes this more difficult. I just know in my heart that I am not happy and its tearing me up that I am affecting you in this way. A lot of how I feel I suppress because I don’t want to hurt you or our kids. This has not been a recent thing for me and I think that you know that it’s not been since face book. If you look back over the past few years I know you saw the changes. I would try to make the feeling go away and it would work for a while because I couldn’t face hurting you or our kids. One of the reasons it’s so difficult for me is because you are such a great guy, great husband and great father. It is not how you are or what you’ve done or not done, It’s just how I feel and who I am and what I need. It’s who we are and how we work together. I love you and I always will love you I just don’t feel like we have the connections between us that we should have. I don’t think it’s something that can be fixed. It is something that I have been trying to fix in me and it is not working. I’ve tried everything I know to do as a wife like praying about it, giving it to God, talking to friends, and denying it in me and it has not changed how I feel and I know this is killing you as much as it is killing me. That is why it has been so long and so hard for me to accept my feelings. I do not want to hurt you or our kids. I felt like I could live like this until Kendyl went off to college because the last thing I want to do is ruin or kids. But is it fair to all of us for me not to be happy. I love them so much and it hurts me so bad to know I am going to hurt them and you. I feel that they know and feel that I am not happy and that I have not been for a long time. I don’t really know where to go from here…. But I can’t stop my feelings and it’s not fair to you or them to live in a house that has no communication or affection. It is both of us that have a communication problem. It hurts me that you can’t talk to me and it hurts me that I feel like I can’t talk to you without feeling really understood or judged. It doesn’t make you at fault or me at fault for how it is but it is what it is. It is not just our comunication, it is how we are together. I know you feel it in the bedroom as well. The connection is not there for me and that is so hard and terrible for me to say or admit, but I know you feel it too. We are so different and I feel like I have changed but also have found myself again. And in that process I’ve learned that I’m not happy and I want different things in life and I’m still trying to figure out what that is. I know this is really sad and hard for all of us and I’m so so sorry for that, I truly am. I never thought we would be going through this but I have to come to terms with what will make me happy and stop being in denial for everyone’s sake. This has nothing to do with anybody else but me. There is no one else. I can’t even handle my own feelings and how this all is affecting us. I know your going to want to place blame somewhere but there is no blame except me, so please don’t blame yourself. You are a great guy, this is just how I feel. I am terrified about our kids and that is one reason this has been so hard or me, so can we please try to keep them out of this as much as possible for now."

[km]

Wow - essemtially 'I'm not "happy" and I don't know what I want - so I'm going to blow up my life and hurt everyone around me - even though I acknowledge that they're all good to/for me'.

If that isn't immature to infantile, I don't know what is.

My heart bleeds for you. But she is really fogged over and it may be time for you to 'tough love' it from here. Focus on protecting the kids (and yourself) and see if she extracts her head from her posterior once she faces the real world a bit.

[veggiemelt]

Like I said dwt - when I was in that place, if I had gotten the letter that you wrote, it would have made me want to pack it up too. So, I am not surprised that you got the response that you did. And it is quite obvious from the response that km said here that men really do not have a clue as to what makes a female go into that sort of mind set.
Not only that, but there is a tremendous amount of disrespect for it. km - you said she needs to pull her head out of her postierior - interesting because I would say the same for a guy who would respond with that answer.

The letter that she wrote to you is very similar to several letters that I wrote to my husband several years ago when I was going through the same thing. What you don't get in her feeling like she needs to leave is that she does not know or feel her place any longer. She just feels like she does not belong anywhere and because she is depressed she feels that her presence is a burden. So she is actually leaving you in an act of love. She doesn't want you to have to suffer or be burdened with her, so rather then put you and your kids through misery, she is doing what feels like the loving thing and removing herself. It is not selfish, it is in her mind an act of love.

Like I told you, peri-menopause and empty nest sort of go hand in hand. A woman has to deal with not only the fact that her body is going through extreme changes which make her feel like she is less in every way. Like she is no longer female and things go through her mind, like why would you want to be with her now. She has nothing to offer. That loss of fertility, is a really tough mental state and a really hard adjustment. Women are wired to be mothers and nurturers, when that role becomes no longer our primary value - we are lost. Your identity as a female is just completely gone and you see no real value in yourself. And you begin to feel like a burden.

You are trying to go to a counselor or work this out, and that makes her feel like she has to change something, but she can't really do that because right now, she doesn't even know what is wrong with her and she doesn't even know who she is, so there is nothing that can change for her now. She wants to leave because she does not have the capacity to fix anything right now. She just can't even identify with that. She is asking for time to let her figure it out and that is exactly what it takes is time, there is no rushing through it. She just has to come to a point where she can get through all of the thoughts and feelings going through her head and then come to a place where she can feel comfortable in her own skin again. She has to figure out what gives her value as a woman now.

The closest I can come to helping you see it as a male would be - think about how you would feel if you were in an accident and you couldn't work anymore, so you could no longer provide for your family. How would that make you feel as a man, would you not question your value and feel like a burden? You are wired to be a provider, what if no one really needed you like that anymore. Everyone that you took care of, can now take care of themselves. Second, add to that factor that at the same time your body starts to change and instead of being a fully sexually functioning male - you start to have less sensation in your penis, so things get a little tough for you. And lets just say that your thing still works to some degree, but it gets smaller and you can have an orgasm, but you can't ejaculate. What would that say to you as a guy? Like what purpose does it serve? Tequnically, I am still a guy and my body still has some sexual function, but the thing that it is really designed to do, it just doesn't do anymore. What would that do to your sense of manhood? Would you feel like maybe she wouldn't really want you anymore? Or wouldn't you question why. And further, in that situation, wouldn't you feel like a burden to her and that you would not want to have to make her live like that. You would probably in fact have the same instinct and want to free her from you, you would leave her out of love for her. Wouldn't you?

If you can identify with anything there, then you have just hit the tip of it. There are so many things that surface for a woman during that time, it is so much harder then anyone would ever believe and men tend to be really insensative to it, because they just don't understand it. She is telling you she wants to leave, because she just really doesn't know what to do or where to turn. And maybe she really does need to leave for a while. I left for less then a week. Like I told you, you need to try to understand as much as you can about what she is going through and don't take any of it lightly. If she can't turn to you, she is going to turn to someone when she starts to recover from the shock of it all. The person that is there for her, is the person in the end, who she will feel the most drawn to. If is isn't you, you had better hope to God that it isn't a male friend.

I have probably said far too much here and maybe it still doesn't make any sense. Just stick with her, it will take some time and then she will start to rebuild herself from the inside out. She will need alot of prayer as will you, because it is not easy from either side.

[dwk]

veggie.... you have been very insightful.... thankyou! I am praying for her ALOT! everyones comments here have been helpful in one way or another... I pray she gives her life back to God and pulls thru, and also recognizes that she does have many of the Peri-M symptoms and Empty nest as well. Prayer, patience, and reassurance, I guess.... I love her SO much, It will be hard if she walks out the door, but I know whatever God has planned for both of us is His will, in His time, not ours.

[rdsmith3]

veggiemelt

You offer some really great insights about this situation, and I hope they are helpful to dwk. I pray that he and his wife will be reconciled.

However, I think it is important that we do not excuse or rationalize away selfish behavior. His wife wrote:

But is it fair to all of us for me not to be happy. I love them so much and it hurts me so bad to know I am going to hurt them and you.

To me, this is the classic feelings-based, me-centered way of thinking that is so prevalent in our culture now. It is a way of thinking that is so far from Christianity, and it is extremely damaging to our society. The supremacy of one's personal happiness might be a great mantra for Oprah and her followers and imitators, but it is a cancer for Christians. I strongly believe that every Christian family should have Philippians 2:3-4 on the refrigerator door (we do).

Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

If we all read that every day, believe it, and live it, our marriages will be much better. I do not mean to criticize dwk's wife specifically, because many people, including Christians, think this same way.

Life is not fair.

Life is not all about my personal happiness or other feelings.

Life involves some amount of suffering.

[veggiemelt]

rd - It is selfish, but you have to remember, that dw wants his wife back. In order for that to really happen, he should make an effort to understand what is making her feel this way. Right or wrong, the feeling is there. Second, like I said, it is not really selfish from her point of view right now. For two reasons - Hormones cause extreme emotional responses that are not rational. Remember we are women, we do not always have the ability to think rationally, the hormone inbalances do really cause temporary insanity, or at least a loss of the ability to think rationally. And there is really not alot she can do about it.
Second - from female view point, leaving because her unhappiness is making the rest of her family miserable, is not a selfish act, it is a sacrifice for them. Now, I know that it doesn't seem so, but remember, this is an altered mental state, so in this moment, at this time - to her, it is the right thing to do, because she feels as if she is a burden rather then an asset to her family. So, yes, rationally it is selfish, but in a hormonal inbalance, it is a confused act of love and kindness.

It is vitally important that a man support a woman in this mental state, because she cannot see it the way that you do, her vision is completely clouded. Judging this behavior harshly, will not make her get better any sooner, and it will cause resentment down the road. Loving her through it, even though it makes no sense, is the only answer. I promise you, give her a little time, and she will start to be able to sort it through and see it on her own. God can help her so much there, and maybe an older female who has been through this could help her as well. Just be careful, the who ever she talks to, is a positive person and not a negetive one. There are two types of menopausal women, fun and happy ones - who were supported and loved through it. And old cranky ones, who were most likely criticized and judged through it. The support through it really does heavily influence how she comes out on the other side and who she becomes for the second half of her life.

[rdsmith3]

veggiemelt

I agree with most of what you are saying. It is good, insightful advice.

Galatians 6:1-2

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual
should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. ... Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of
Christ.

However, I can't buy the altered state argument. Would you accept a man saying, "My testosterone is through the roof today. I need to go down to the massage parlor to relieve some stress." Hormones do not make a person forget their wedding vows.

[charity1]

dwk,
I'm sorry, I have to jump in here. I am a middle-aged woman and have experienced some of what veggiemelt is talking about, but I'm with rdsmith3, those things don't cause you to forget your marriage vows or walk away from your children. What I read in your wife's letter is that someone is giving her attention that she is thoroughly enjoying, and that ego boost is making her become very selfish in her thinking. I know she denied there being anyone else in her letter, but people who have always been good, strong Christians, can become the worst liars in the world if an attraction to someone of the opposite sex becomes an issue. I am not going so far as to say your wife is having an affair, because I don't know all the facts, but I do know that when someone is already dissatisfied with their life, they can easily rewrite history to accommodate their thoughts of straying. The "not being happy for a long time" part of her letter and your original post of how you used to do everything together and basically had a happy marriage sounds all too familiar. When a person is already in a vulnerable state like your wife is, extra attention from an attractive member of the opposite sex can give them a welcome distraction from their boring, stressful life and that in turn can give them irrational thoughts. I'm sorry, I just don't believe people who have been married for 20 years just up and walk away from that marriage without someone else being involved somewhere.

We are so different and I feel like I have changed but also have found myself again. And in that process I’ve learned that I’m not happy and I want different things in life and I’m still trying to figure out what that is. I know this is really sad and hard for all of us and I’m so so sorry for that, I truly am. I never thought we would be going through this but I have to come to terms with what will make me happy and stop being in denial for everyone’s sake.

Since women are normally mothers and nurturers, I just don't believe that being alone, away from her home, her husband and children would make her happy. It would really shock me if there isn't more involved in her story. I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just thinking you really need to know what exactly you are dealing with in order to work things out. Do you know why she is waiting until July to leave?

[veggiemelt]

OK Charily,

I wasn't going to go there. Because in reality, if she is in fact confiding in another man, which could very well be the case, the thought of that or even the idea is not going to put dwk in a place where he can reach her. In all honesty, the "I'm just not happy and this has been going on for a long time", is in fact an indicator that she is seeing very vividly things that she may in fact have always wanted in her relationship, but saw them as somewhat lacking. If she is confiding in another man and getting attention, during a time when she needs to feel validated as a female, unrealistic romantic expectations can make you feel like there was something missing in your marriage.

dw, remember when I said that "she is going to talk to someone and you had better hope to God that it isn't another male", well that statement comes from experience. When I was going through all of these things, my husband was distant and bitter and had no regard for my feelings. He just kept telling me I was crazy and that he was sick of it. He made no effort to try to understand, and to make matter worse. I was already having issues of a loss of female identity and feeling like I was somehow less as a woman because of the physical changes, to make it all worse - instead of comforting me - my husband was watching porn in the internet and telling me that he had no sexual interest in me any longer. I needed desperately to feel like I was attractive and that I still had value, sexual value as a woman, even though my body was at the end of being able to bear a child. So, he did not support me in the way that I needed to be supported, but in fact made it that much worse. I had a really good male friend, who listened, who cared, and who let me talk - it made me feel the way that I wanted and needed to feel. The thing is, I never wanted it to be him that made me feel that way, I wanted it to be my husband. but he just wasn't able to give me that and probably for alot of reasons, that were not all his fault, none the less, I was drawn to the place that gave me comfort and yes it was in fact another man.

I did not have a physical affair, I did however form an attachment to the way I felt around him and I wanted to be around him for that reason. It was the only time I felt like a whole person, like a woman. It was wrong, and I know that and I am very sorry for it. It was not a line i had ever thought I could cross, nor one that I ever wanted to and in fact it happened before I even knew it. Like I said, there was never anything physical, nothing what so ever. It was just an attachment and even the feelings were not real. It was a fantasy of sorts, a romantic fantasy and one that I really wanted with my own husband. It make me feel like I was not happy, because it started to make me want the "Ideal" romantic situation, free of fighting and tension and miscomunication. I wanted to feel understood and loved and accepted and supported until I could sort my way through it.

What I am trying to tell you, is to be that man for her. Show her love and attention and acceptance, and more then anything, validate her as a female, because that is really what she cannot feel in herself right now. That is the biggest place where she is lost. Don't make her find it on her own and don't let her feel doubt that she is indeed beautiful and desirable even though she is older and she is changing.

There is really no way to explain how that feels, but honestly, she has complete doubt in herself right now. And her reason for wanting to leave is because she does not understand how you could love her now, and she can't understand why you would love her or want to be with her. She hates herself and she doesn't even know who she is or what there is to love about her. She is confused. And if she has confided in another male, now she is even more confused.

Like i said, my husband was not there when I needed him most. But, he has tried to find a way to be there now and I know that I am not always seeing his efforts for what they are. I have tremendous doubt and mis trust and it is because of everything else that happened during those years. It all sent the wrong message, and now I continue to struggle with seeing the right message that he is trying to give me.

I am not excusing her behavior in any way, part of it is in fact wrong. However, what you need to realize, is that in the place that she is in, it may be difficult for her to see it. Patience and prayer is what will get her through. She needs to turn to God and let him help her, and that is in the end what got me through as well. And what continues to help me to grown and understand so many things. DWK - you are in a tough place, but it is not too late. She is probably not having an affair, especially if you guys have always had a good marriage. But she could be forming an attachment to someone who is showing her understanding and those feelings are not because she does not love you. Those feelings are because she is having a hard time loving herself. And what ever is happening to her, just know that she is not doing it on purpose. So you just have to forgive he for it and realize that she is not even herself.

Another thing, I may have said that hormones are to blame - and that probably is easily mis understood. Hormones are not an excuse for women to behave badly. As women we go through hormone changes every month from the time we are teens. We learn to recognize in ourselves when we start to feel cranky because we have PMS, and we can learn to control it. And we should learn to do that, but it doesn't always it you the moment that you feel it. Sometimes it takes for us to act out or yell at someone, and then we go - wow, why did I do that, I feel bad.

Emotional crisis in a female can happen for alot of reasons, we are emotional creatures, sometimes we just have a tough time controlling our emotions. It isn't even always about hormones, sometimes it is something else, but we are emotionally driven and those emotions are altered or enhanced by our female hormones. In a weakened state, it is very difficult for us sometimes to think clearly, especially when the emotional changes are not familiar to us, like the pattern is different so we aren't always able to see that we are overly emotional.

Guys, I think a good way that maybe you can relate is in fact your own issues that are driven by hormones. Think about it something like this - if you go one day without sex, it is not a big deal, but after several days for a week or longer - temptation becomes more difficult to resist. That feeling continues to build - and it is hard to fight it. And it doesn't matter how strong your faith is or how moral you are, it is just how your body works because you are male. A woman would never stop expecting a guy to have sexual urges. That would mean that you just aren't a guy anymore. You can't expect a female to always instantly be able to control our emotions that are in fact driven by hormones every day of our lives whether we are in puberty, childbearing years, or at the end of our fertility days. It is hormones and the amount of them in our bodies that drive all of those things, it is what makes us female. We cannot control it anymore then you can control your need to ejaculate. It is just how we are made. and the struggle for us to be emotionally stable is probably equal to the struggle for a male to be sexually moral. It isn't moral for a man to have thoughts of lust, but it happens in most cases probably at least briefly every day. For women, it is the same, we have moments where we have irrational thoughts and feelings, it isn't right, but it happens and we do try I promise you to keep it under control, but there are times in our lives, that we have to learn a new pattern, we have to figure it out all over again.

[SAM]

I agree, the first part of this letter was wonderful - the 2nd part was disasterous.

At the age of 28, I had to have a complete hysterectomy. What this did to my body and my mind was unbelievable - emotionally and hormonally. What I experienced, my emotions, my thoughts - they were all a roller coaster with no rhyme or reason. It took six years of seeing multiple doctors to get me on the right track hormonally. Male hormones and female hormones work entirely different, so you cannot equate the two in the same context and come out with the same reasoning - because God did not design our bodies to be chemically the same.

The sad truth of this situation is, a woman does not decided to leave her home unless she has another "place" or "person" to attach to emotionally. She is leaving to find her happiness. What she has written is a very kind and gentle way of letting you know this.

[charity1]

OK Charily, I wasn't going to go there. Because in reality, if she is in fact confiding in another man, which could very well be the case, the thought of that or even the idea is not going to put dwk in a place where he can reach her.

I hesitated to go there too, but since I have been in dwk's shoes, I know that denial is not a productive option. I also feel that this forum is about openness and honesty. We are here to help each other. When I was confiding in my best friends about my husband's actions, they assured me there was no way there was anything going on with him. I chose to believe that and let it go on and on. My husband was relieved when I put a stop to it. He was in a predicament he didn't know how to get out of. Adultery is a form of addiction. When the reality of losing everything hit him, his eyes were suddenly opened. The devil has a way of getting in a person's head and convincing them they have every right to be selfish and "be happy". A Christian cannot be happy living in adultery. Until your wife comes to her senses, dwk, she can't get the help from God she so desperately needs. You can pray for her, but you also need to help bring the darkness into the light. Affairs, emotional or physical, thrive in secret. Once the secret is out in the open, all the excitement is taken away. Your wife has a serious spiritual problem, and it needs to be dealt with as soon as possible.

[veggiemelt]

I completely agree Charily. If that is in deed the case then it does need to come out in the open. However, again I will say that if dw's wife is in anywhere near the messed up state of mind that mine was, he needs to remember that if she in deed is having an emotional affair or forming an attachment in confiding in someone else, - that is not what is really behind anything, it is just fueling the fire and making it that much more confusing for her. So, making the OM, if there is one, the focus, is not going to solve any of their problems. I understand that you have been through the change if life, however in some people it is extreme and much different for every woman. I was very young, 38, way too young for what is considered normal, therefore at the onset, I had no idea what was messing up my mind or my body functions for that matter. It is harder in a younger woman and the mental effects can be extreme, simply because you are ready for it - age alone has a way of better preparing you to be ready and accepting of certain things. I think Sam sort of attested to that. Also, life cerumstances in every situation can make it even more difficult, so I think it is important to keep an open mind.

Once again I want to point out that at any other time in my life, I would never have formed that close of an attachment to another male, I would have known it was wrong, because I have always known that. However, during that time, coupled with the rest of it, i was in a different place and not myself. It took a while for me to see that and understand it, and in fact my faith grew in that. You say that dw's wife needs to get her life back in line with Christ. I understand that statement, but I will tell you that during that time for me, I did nothing but pray - I wanted God to save me, but I did not have a clear enough mind to be able to listen to what he was saying.

She probably does want help and is most likely looking for it, the problem could be that she might be finding it in the wrong place because the people in her life may not understand it and therefore don't know how to give her what she needs.

There is one more thing I would like to point out, and that is what she probably means when she says that "she is not happy".
I said that too, and my husband took it to mean exactly what I think everyone here is hearing, that she is looking for happiness. That is not in fact true. What she means by happiness is purpose. She does not feel her purpose, there is a void and she can't find the reason, but feels that something is lacking in herself. She no longer feels her purpose or value as a woman. One of the breaking points in the communication where I could see that my husband was starting to understand is when I used the word "purpose", why am I here? What is my role? Where is my value? Because whatever she felt that was before, it gone. So she has to find a new one, something that gives her value. When I said it to him like that, he started to take it less personally, he started to feel and understand that is wasn't that he couldn't make me happy, but that I was just not able to feel or see value in myself the way that I had always known it.

Sam told me that I needed to let God fill the void or the emptiness that I felt and to stop looking for it in a purpose or a person in my life. It took me a while to grasp what she was saying, and then one day I just finally got it. Sometimes someone can tell you something over and over again, but you can't really understand until the light finally clicks on, sometimes it takes being completely broken for that to happen. No one can bring her to that point but God and herself, but she can be loved and understood until she gets there. And love and understanding is what will keep her from falling off the edge and making a huge mistake. Unfortunately, I did not have that, and I did make the mistake, but God was there and he opened my eyes before it became really damaging. I have had to forgive my husband for alot of things, but he has had to forgive me as well. And in a sense, we both had to recover from adultry, because we had both committed it in a non physical form. He betrayed my with porn and never really committing to be sexually in his mind, during out entire marriage until the past year or so, he was never sexually faithful to me, not even when he was with me - there was always someone else on his mind. I had an emotional affair, that I did not imidiately end, so I betrayed him as well. Both of us were hurt by it and even though his unfaithfulness lasted decades, I do in fact believe that he was probably just as hurt by what I did in a matter of months. Non the less, we can forgive and learn to not make the same mistakes again. That is what I pray for.
And that is what I pray for you as well Dw.

[dwk]

So much info and perspective. I am glad and grateful for it all, but a little confused sometimes.... dunno where to go from here. She is planning on getting an apartment with her best friend (female) very close so she can still visit kids. The only people she hangs around are women.... that I know of based on what she tells me. Her BF would SERIOUSLY not condone or support her getting friendly with another man. But if she did/does, she will have to answer to God for that. She really does not want to converse much with me at this point. She is still at home, we sleep in the same bed, we go about our normal daily stuff, but usually do not see her in the evenings... she hangs out with her BF almost all the time shes not at home. Her plan right now is to be out first of July... I told her how much I care about her and love her and just want to give her any time, distance, or space she needs to feel better. She is in Gods hands. She is waiting until July because she cannot afford an apartment until then. I will most likely then lose the house shortly afterwards with the loss of her income, unless she decides to help... ??? God is in control of it all... not me.