Growthtrac Community

[veggiemelt]

dw - This from the heart the best advice I can give you from a woman who has been in that place.
Give her space, and don't pressure or guilt her, leave the kids out of it - she already has that on her mind. Realize the this is something she is feeling and it is between you and her. Continue to show her affection without expectation, reach out and touch her hand, kiss her if she will let you. At night when you are in bed, put your hand on her, silently. If you can, ask if you can hold her and don't do anything else. Don't mention her leaving, but be there and help her if she needs to pack some things.
Let her feel like you are giving her space and setting her free, but let her see that it makes you sad. Then, when she is ready to go - ask her not to leave. Don't say "I don't want you to go" simply say -look her in the eye and say "don't go". then tell her you love her and if she still drives away, leave her alone. The last thing she will remember is what you said when she left, I can bet you she will be back in a matter of days.

You sound like a good man and giving her to God is the best thing and the right thing. Don't try to figure all this out, because it won't make sense and it might make you angry if you think about it too much. Just do it.

[dwk]

thankyou veggie. I will try what u said and let u know. I have often told her recently that I love her and that I wish she would not go, but that if she felt she needed to, i would support it.

[dwk]

Last night she seemed a little more upbeat, so I tried to talk and see how she was feeling/what she was thinking about, put my hand on her upper arm while in bed, and asked "how r u feeling" and "what r u thinking about"....her response was a sad look and a "please don't".

[veggiemelt]

dw - Don't try to get her to talk right now. It is like pressure and it is going to bring up feels of guilt in her, that is part of the confusion. She is trying to find a place within herself where she feels that she knows who she is and where she has value as a person and especially as a female. She can't talk about it, because you dont get it and she knows it and if she has tried to talk to you about it before, I am going to guess that there was probably a fight or misunderstanding and she was just frustrated because she couldn't say it in a way that you could really understand. It is a major gender thing and there isn't really a way to bridge it, it is just a place where we are so different, that there is really no way for you to grasp it and not even really a way to put it into words.
She is probably really deep in thought most of the time, which might make her seem distant or distracted, she is trying to think it out. Unfortunately, getting stuck in the thought process for long periods of time will just make her more confused and probably depressed. Talk to her, try to get her to think or talk about other stuff, like things you have done together that were fun, or old memories that maybe are happy or funny. If you can get her to laugh, that is a good thing.

When you are in bed, just keep the conversation from being too heavy, but try to be personal, like talk about what she did today or something that is lighter, but not about work or money or her leaving. You can tell her that she is beautiful and that you love her, but don't do it in a way that seems needy or creates guilt in her, like she has to stay for you or for the kids. As much as that might be a huge part of the right reason, she has to figure out that that is what she wants and not what she has to do. It has to be a choice, not an obligation and she has to figure out why she needs to do that and how for her that is actually what does make her feel loved and valued. She might not be changing diapers anymore, but he will figure out eventually that you guys still need her but it is for a different reason, that she is not there to meet all of your servival needs anymore, but that her value now is more in her presence and the peace and joy that she brings to your life just because she is there and she can give to you all in a different way now. You can't tell her that in words so much, but you might be able to figure out a way to help her realize that, the important thing is that she has to figure that out for herself, it has to come from her own mind and the new identity that she forms for herself and what becomes now a part of who she is. When you touch her at night, you do not need to say anything and make sure that your touch is in giving love and now in taking love, as strange as that sounds, it is something that can be felt in just the touch of your hand. You could just touch her and pray silently and ask God to help her feel you and how much you love her and ask him to mend her heart and her mind through your touch. I am praying for both of you, this is a really hard time and it is something that you are just going to have to ride out until it passes, until she finds herself again.

[dwk]

You are correct.... she does need to find herself. But I do believe that unless she re-connects to God and submits to Him, that she will not find true happiness, joy or herself. God has used this trial in my life to break me down and make me depend on Him... not on myself, my wife, my job or anything else... Him alone. Thankyou again Veggie!

[veggiemelt]

You are correct DW, she does need to reconnect with God. But if she is a Christian, there is a good chance that she is actually trying to do that. Part of the problem in that mental state is that it is hard to think clearly, so it is also difficult to hear what God is saying to you. If she is praying, she is probably looking for something that he is not showing her - because it is not what she wants to hear.
I was praying every day, but I was not listening or clearly hearing the message. I finally just started praying for God to give me a clear vision, to help me to think clearly and to see clearly. The best way for me to describe that mental state, is it is like looking through a fog. It gives you a really lost, uncertain, cloudy feeling of loneliness and you can't really see beyond it. You keep trying to see beyond it, but just like trying to drive in fog, you have to go really slowly because you don't know what is right in front of you and it is frightening to keep going when you can't see what is there. Yes, she can only find try happiness, fulfillment, and peace and meaning in her life through Christ. Keep praying for her and maybe even ask if you can pray with her, just really simple prayers, nothing specific, just ask for God to be with both of you and to feel his presence in your lives, for him to guide you both in the right direction that is in keeping with his will. It can be very powerful for you to pray in her presence, even if she is resistant to it.
God does often bring us to a breaking point before we can be in a place where we are willing to surrender. And sometimes it is the only time we soften our heart enough to forget about what we want and where we have to learn to love and forgive and let go.

[dwk]

Yesterday, she and her BF signed a 13 month lease on an apartment.

[km]

Sorry to hear that.

You sound as if you are making amazing efforts to hold to a Biblical stance on forgiveness and such as to your spouse. Perhaps, could it be, that your stance is communicating to her that you are weak and can be walked on at her will/pleasure? I wonder if a tougher love stance might garner you some greater respect - and make your position stronger?

[veggiemelt]

That thought crosses my mind as well. There is a fine line between taking a firm stand as the head of your household and asserting yourself - and being in a position or mind set of demanding submission. The underlying intention is difficult to know, so in a female who is already resistant - it could feel like being even more controlled by her surroundings and less in control of herself. It is a tough call and there is really no way of knowing how she will react.

Dw - you would have to pray about and think about it and decide for yourself how you have been in the previous years of your marriage. Were you controlling, or over bearing or did you lead with confidence and allow her to follow of her own free will. Second, is she the type of woman who will accept her role in your marriage, or has she tried to be the one who wears the pants? If you have made drastic changes in yourself, how have those changes effected your relationship and her reactions to you. If you have surrendered to God and changed things in yourself and she has not, then the outcome is not going to be as you expect, which is obviously what you are experiencing. From what you have said and the letters you have posted here, I would guess this to be a point of mid-life crisis which could be any number of things, but most likely what we have discussed here, is playing a major role in it. km does have a point though, if she is trying to find her place and figure out who she is at a transition point in her life, - then being a total wuss, might not be the answer. That is not to say that you should be a jerk or control freak and tell her what to do either.
But being a little assertive, couldn't really hurt anything if it is done with confidence and compassion. I suppose at this point you could try the -

"You have a responsibility to this family and to me, and what you are doing is not fair or right for any of us. I would like to give you some space as I understand that you may be in the midst of a difficult time, but that does not give you the right to abandon your family. We have shared over 20 years of our lives together, I think you have a responsibility to at least see a counselor and try to work this out before you walk away."

Maybe she does need a push, only you can decide that, if she is already truly settled on the idea of leaving, then maybe it is time to get though on her. God knows the direction, just pray and try to follow him. Outside of that just like anything else, it is pretty much a crap shoot.

[km]

There are certainly overbearing tyrant husbands out there - but I think the too weak male is a more common problem.

The tyrant is dramatic and generates attention, but the weak ones are more common and simply less noticable.

[dwk]

She has not really ever been "submissive", and I have always been kind of "non-confrontational" with her. We always seemed to get along and agree for the vast majority of things. I have never allowed myself to be treated like a "doormat", but I never really pushed hard on any issues either, preferring to minimize arguing. When we would have a situation that we disagreed on, and I would take a strong stance on something I felt strongly about, and verbalized it, she didn't really like that. She said very recently "...everything is so black and white with you..." and yes...it is! To me there is a right and a wrong especially from a biblical standpoint. I have suggested counseling pretty strongly recently and she has ignored/not responded to the suggestions. The "you owe us/me" will probably not get us very far IMHO. I am continuting praying....

[km]

Biblical submission (and headship) are not what most modern Western people envision when the terms come up. The current culture has rebeled so much at that model that the whole concept has been tainted into a characature.

[veggiemelt]

This is true, the roles that God wired men and women to be naturally inclined to play, have been severely altered. Much of this is due to a more materialistic lifestyle and what we view now as success. I am going to sound like an anti feminist here, but I think women in the work force has a lot to do with it. Guys have so much more pressure to provide the big house and the expensive cars and the up scale lifestyle, so they feel pressured to work more, to achieve more in their job - not only because it seems to be what the women in their lives are asking for, but also because of keeping up with their peers. Women have had to contribute financially because it seems that the more money that a guy makes, the more things that they want. It is a trap, women have to work to make all of those things possible. I don't really think that whole idea of having more or better or bigger stuff is ever what makes anyone happy or really successful for that matter. But it is the culture that we live in, so the pressure is there.

I think that many if not most of the issues that we discuss on this board are more a result of the pressures of the "ideal" lifestyle and trying to keep up with what we think is expected of us, rather then real problems is two people really being unhappy with one another. Call me a romantic, but I think that when you fall in love with someone, those feelings are real and I believe that somewhere inside they always remain, it is not the true feelings that fade, it is the pressures of life and trying to find happiness, success, or fulfillment in things that cause us to stray from our original roles as men and women according to God's plan. It is not the other person that we become unhappy with really, it is the negative or difficult parts of ourselves that surface through living this life of pressure and stress that in time turn two people against each other. I think when you love someone, you always try to make them happy, making your partner happy is what makes us happy. But, so often that effort to make your partner happy becomes something materialistic, rather then something that is just free and from the heart. Money cannot buy happiness and everyone knows that, and yet, for some reason, we all seem to be stuck in that success = money = pressure = stress trap.

I don't really know how we can escape it, because it is where most of us have gotten ourselves, but I think it is ultimately what has also destroyed most in of in a variety of ways. I personally would like to be able to just go back to when life was simple and even though money was tight, we were happy and I never felt like we needed anything more. To tell you the truth, I think we would have stayed there, but we had pressure from our parents and family to buy a bigger house and strive to move up the social ladder. I only worked part time when my kids were little, I stayed at home with them and ran a small business there. I spent alot of time with them, played with them, we did stuff on the weekends - fun things that were cheap, camping, pic-nics, simple things, I made all their clothes, we grew a garden, we went on walks and bike rides every night. My kids had toys, but they had more fun making mud pies and building towers out of sticks and doing craft projects with me. My husband had a good job and he liked it. He was home at 5 and didn't work weekends. He didn't make a huge amount of money, but it was enough. But his sister are professional women, they looked down on me and they gave us a hard time because they though I should be working. His family treated us like we were poor and destitute, which we were not and I never felt that way. My family put pressure on my husband, saying he should try to do more, make more money - I never asked for that.

Looking back, we should never have let ourselves feel that pressure, we should not have cared what our families thought, but we did and we are both responsible for falling into that trap. I guess my point is, everyone's life can be good when we live the way that God intended, it is when we fall from that that so many problems start to grow and once you are there, it is so hard to go back.

[dwk]

Amen to all of that!

[km]

I heartily agree with veggiemelt there.

The problem is that BOTH partners need to realize it, and be willing to get out of the rat race.