Growthtrac Community

[SAM]

The more you try, the more she rebels?

You've described your wife as a highly capable and intelligent woman. Deep within herself, she knows what God requires of her as a wife. If she's attended church, read a bible, or been in a bible study... she knows. He makes his ways known. We choose to follow them, or we don't.

The battle may not be with you... and in many respects I do not think that is the case. The battle your wife is fighting is with her past and with God. You happen to be the nearest object to take it out on.

You've sat on your letter for quite some time now. What have you decided?

[km]

The latest blow up makes it untenable as written. I'm deciding whether (or how) rewriting it might help. It might just have to be pared back to an acknowledgement that I have utterly failed her as a husband and leave it up to her as to whether she wishes to undertake serious counseling (joint marital counseling) or split.

[SAM]

I will continue to pray for you to receive Godly wisdom and direction on this.

[veggiemelt]

km, it seems that you are still struggling with the same old issues. i thought maybe you were taking some time to try to sort things out. i did not read all of these posts, but i do have a little imput in the initial subject.

you asked why women are so mis informed about men. i assume you are referring to sexual needs as that seems to be the context in the early posts. i do believe that most men think about sex quite often, however i am going to be a little bold here and say that men think they want a lot more sex then they actually do. i think guys how have less sex want it more and i would venture to say that men who have it available to them 24/7 become bored of it. i think in fact part of it is the chase and the thrill of conquest even in a marriage. i think once a man gets a woman to the point where she is completely willing to submit at any time, he loses some if not a lot of that interest. what i am saying is you and rd often speak of wanting sex multiple times a day. when in fact it may be that if you actually had that opportunity, you would not in fact take it for more then a couple of weeks at best. this is going to sound really sexist, but i think most of us, men and women always seem to want what we don't have and we idealize the thought of it. but once we have it, the thrill seems to fade quickly. and men in fact seem to do this very much so with regard to sex and even sexual partners. once you have it, you want something different.

you have said for a long time on this forum that you just wanted more frequency. but you got her up to 2 or 3 times a week and that still wasn't enough, because now there needs to be foreplay too. so, first you want frequency and now you want variety as well. i am not saying you are wrong in wanting any of those things as they are all good in a healthy relationship. but, like every part of a marriage, things have to grow in time and after a lot of years of mistakes - it takes a long time to correct or change anything. a very long time and somehow the past seems to keep creeping into any new effort causing a temporary backslide.

frequency is different in every marriage, but i don't believe there are a lot of people over 40 doing it more then a couple of times a week, especially after 20 plus years of marriage, at least not consistantly. and if there are, i would like to know what kind of drugs they are on.

some marriage seem to be able to work through enough of the other issues to formulate a solid sexual relationship, one that is mutually satisfying and withstands time. but in truth, most marriages suffer in the bedroom on an ongoing basis. it seems to come and go in waves. i personally do not think it is good for any marriage to go longer then a week without some form of physical intimacy, not at any age. the physical intimacy forms a bond that has a lot more to do with other things then just sex. it somehow keeps you connected even when things are difficult.

but having sex, just for the sake of having sex, isn't always a good thing. in fact it can become a really bad thing over time. you guys say that you want sex all the time, but what if in fact it is bad sex, maybe for both of you. guys might not really care so much, but women tend to lose interest over time.

you say that women are mis informed about men, but in fact men are just as mis informed about women and that could very well be most of the reason you aren't getting any where near what you think that you want. why do guys so easily forget that women need sex too. but we need something that feels more connected. it fills an emotional need for us and if you are only concerned about the physical aspect, then your wife is missing out not only on what she needs but what brings her close enough to you to want more.

ps, my vote on the frequency question from a female point of view, - twice a week is about perfect, maybe three times on occasion and that is come from a female who actually wants to do it. anything more then that just becomes rutine at least at my age.

[SAM]

frequency is different in every marriage, but i don't believe there are a lot of people over 40 doing it more then a couple of times a week, especially after 20 plus years of marriage, at least not consistantly. and if there are, i would like to know what kind of drugs they are on.

You are too funny, veggimelt.

My husband and I mentor pre-marital couples in their 20's and 30's. For the record, we ask the question - "What will be an agreeable number of times to have sex a week?" Men: 7-10 times. Women: 1-2 times

Next question: How to you think married life will be once you are living together?

Men: Come home from work, have sex. Eat dinner, have sex. Watch TV, have sex. Go to bed, have sex.

Women: Plan a meal, go to the grocery store after work, cook a meal - have him wolf it down in 5 minutes, and want sex. I'm hoping he'll set the mood for us by helping me with washing the dishes, cleaning things up, putting things away, thanking me for a great meal, vacuuming or dusting the place, throwing in a load of laundry or paying the bills, folding the laundry, rubbing my back or toes or enjoying a relaxing bath... giving me time to breathe and settle my mind and body into needing him. I can manage this once or twice a week.

As for the couples who are in our small group - 30's through 50's - they are very lucky to be together once a month because of children in the home. For the empty nesters - once or twice a week seems to be the norm.

National average: 10 times a year

Do you think with the pace of our lives and over-commitment to outside activities has anything to do with frequency?

[veggiemelt]

Sam, is the national average really 10 times a year? i guess i can believe that could be true if what both men and women say in passing is true. i know a lot of women who say they do it about once a month on the average. most of those women say that after everything they have to do they are just too tired and have too much on their mind. i think the fact that we are way over committed has a lot to do with it, but i think the stress factor is more of it, especially for men. Financial stress is very wearing on guys and like my own husband, it seems to follow them to bed at night.

that being said, i thought my marriage was in trouble when we went through a couple of years where we did it maybe 20 or 30 times a year. with stretches longer than a month in between. that is sort of the cycle i was talking about. drastic changes like nothing for over a month and then suddenly several times in the same week and then nothing for a long time again. we are way past that now, thank God. But during those times, we were not connected enough to even have the ability to see one anothers needs let a lone think about them. I think there are so many marriages that suffer from that pattern and it sort of makes you never know quite where you stand. it creates doubt and insecurity in females followed by a lack of interest and a need to pull away. and in males, it most likely creates resentment and a detachment as well. none of which help the situation any. it becomes a downward spiral that doesn't stop until an effort is made by at least one partner and that effort is accepted by the other.

churches have been very lax in the past at addressing these issues. it seems to be the elephant in the closet. we put on a happy face and go about our day, but in the minds of both partners - the void is felt and yet never really spoken, at least not with honestly and respect.

the truth is, couples fight about sex almost as much as they fight about money. sex is listed as number 2 in the area of greatest factor is dis satisfaction. that is right number 2, money is number 1, but the percentage seperating the two is very small. and yet, people have open discussions about money, but rarely about sex. sadly, you can't solve any problem unless you are able to talk about it rationallly and openly.

i know that the main problem when i comes to women is like you mentioned - the right mood is not set. these guys have trouble taking the time to help us relax so that we can welcome the idea. we can't just jump into bed and be ready to go and it don't really get why they have such a hard time understanding that. we don't want the same thing all the time, it is boring. and yet, the thought of romancing us seems to send men running to the tv set. guys alwys complain that they don't get enough, or that we won't cut loose and do something different. but they don't seem to want to put the time and effort into bringing us close enough to feel like completely letting go.

i am sorry to say this, but guys, if you are bored with us and you feel that we aren't giving you enough action - it is probably largely your own fault. if you want a hot rod in your bed, then you have to take the time to warm up her engine or you will never get her up to full speed. and i honestly doubt most men have ever even seen their wife at full speed - maybe we want to see what we have under the hood too. we can't get reved up on our own, it doesn't work that way. and i think most women would actually enjoy the feeling of being fully accelerated. we have no way of knowing until we are taken to that level.

let me say this a little more clearly - women have to be physically touched to feel truly inclined to want sexual contact. that means more then just touching the forbidden parts. any guy who goes straight for second or third base - is not going to get even a hint of the passion she holds inside. All you are going to get is sex, if you are lucky. Guys haven't been mis informed, they just choose not to listen. wake up guys, this is the way we are wired, it isn't going to change. so stop resenting us for needing a little effort and give us the right kind of attention - the kind that God intended for us to have. I can guarantee you will get something worthy of your time. ( oh and if you do it with an attitude, you are wasting your time).

You don't want us giving you crap for the way that you are made and the way that you think - stop expecting us to be sex slaves with no self respect. We were made by God to be tenderly loved and wooed into submission. So stop complaining and start doing your part.

[veggiemelt]

i recently read the post by rd entitled - this is why i will never understand women. i read part of this artice and it makes total sense if you really think about it and it applies greatly here.

like we have said many times before, sex to women is physical as well as emotional. but no matter how physically satisfying an encounter may be, if she is not able to connect emotionally - she is not in fact fully aroused. women are described as sentual creatures. why - because we feel things in a multitude of ways and we sense something deeper then what is visually apparent.

in the article rd is speaking of, women are shown pictures of varies situations and their responses were drastically different not only from one female to the next, but in each female throughout the experiment. it was never consistant. men on the other hand were pretty much al on the same page. when a female looks at something be it live or a photo - she can sense the emotion behind it. it is not really the photo that caused arousal in the women, but what she saw beyond the photo. for men, it was just the pictures themselves that drove the arousal.

it seems complicated, but it really isn't. it is not what a guy says or does, but how he does it. it is the feeling behind it and what she senses in that. when you do or say something nice to your wife and you meant it from the heart, she knows it. but when you do or say it with doubt, regret, insecurity, or any other questionable feeling - she knows it and she feels it and it effects the way she will respond.

guys often do things or say things that they may mean with all good intention, but they come across poorly because he is often doing it out of obligation, or with a sense of failure, expecting something negative. or he has a motive for his actions and she senses it. true heartfelt actions and words are given without expectation. that means either positive or negative. you just do it because you want to. that is the primary difference between men and women. women are born with the ability to just serve, for no reason, for nothing really in return. we don't always do that, but it is in our nature. men on the other hand are born and driven to strive for something. everything they do has a specific intention, it is meant to be an accomplishment in one way or another.

guys literally cannot do something with out needing to have it noticed. that is not a derogatory comment. it is the truth and it is the way they are wired, accomplishment is in their blood. women on the other hand can do meaningless task after meaningless task and expect no one to notice - because it is literally in our nature. women however expect to be noticed on other ways. we do not so much expect to be noticed for what we do, but for what we are. we just need to be noticed - period.

and that fact - that we just need to be noticed is really what so much of this is all about. you can bring us stuff and do things for us until the cows come home - and don't get me wrong, it is nice and we do like it - but what we really want is just for you to notice we are there, to pay attention, and to see us as women, not your mother or your servant or your housekeeper. but as a woman. guys look at women all day, they notice women when they walk by without even speaking a word. and godly men spend all day trying not to notice women. and then very often, they come home and forget to look at their wife.

do you guys know that most women will touch up their hair and make up before they see their husband at the end of the day. why do you think she does that, do you notice and do you care? most likely not.

it may seem like i am putting a lot off on to the guys here, but i find parts of this thread baffling. why, because the issue here is men thinking that women don't want enough sex and that we don't understand their need for it. but if women didn't want sex and we didn't understand our men's need for it, then why do we constantly try to make ourselves attractive, why do we care to much about what we look like. we are in fact trying every single day to appeal to your needs. most women try to give their husband a lot more then what we are given credit for. we ask for what we need, time attention, affection, romance - those are the things that make us want sex or at least make us willing and able to go there. we are asking you to give us what we need so that we can give you what you need.

the problem is that is becomes a fight, we have to fight for what we need and we seem to have to always ask or at least put out a reminder. why? why are women always labeled the ones who don't want sex when so much of what we do is actually in one form or another an open door to the bedroom.

the truth is, most women open the door every single day - but our guys seem to turn the other direction. so we close it for the rest of the day or night. and tomarrow we open the door again. but guys never seem to want to just walk through the door when it is open, they just try to break it down after it is already closed.

women never stop opening the door, at least as long as they still care about their relationship. the opening just begins to become less wide over time, but most of us continue to try because it is what we want as well.

what is fail to understand is why we can tell guys over and over and over again how to get in our pants and it just never seems to hit home. And the thing that really throws me is, if any one of these guys were to get booted out - they would suddenly remember how to win over a female once they hit the single zone again. so the real question is - why did you guys suddenly forget how to treat a girl once she became your wife.

[km]

Veggie- I never said I ONLY want greater frequency. I have been fairly consistent - I would like to go from being actively disrespected to respected and from infrequent bad sex to more frequent good sex. The once or twice a week I see as a given figure for empty nesters is what I might well see as a very reasonable and livable compromise. The rest of your advice is stuff I fully know and can not implement - my efforts in that regard have been soundly rejected. I am the (apparently rare) touchy/feely, cuddly/snuggly man and (by Murphy's Law it would seem) eneded up married to (apparently equally rare) woman who doesn't want to be touched or snuggle.

[rdsmith3]

veggiemelt

Thanks for all your thoughts. I only have time for a few random comments.

First, the articles I posted elsewhere seemed to indicate that women are very complex in their sexual response. For example, the one article noted a discrepancy between a woman's physiological response, and what they say is their response. It's almost as if there is an internal conflict, or at least inconsistency, in many women.

Second, for me, I have often commented that I want greater intimacy with my wife of all kinds -- emotional, spiritual, and physical. It seems like you are oversimplifying it to purely a sexual desire, but it is much more than that for me. I would like my wife to pray with me; I would like my wife and I to be friends who encourage and support one another; I would like to my wife and I to laugh, kiss, hug, and just enjoy one another's company. We do not have any intimacy of any kind. period. We are roommates who raise kids together. She will tell me what is on her mind, very often. She does not want to hear what is on my mind if it in any way, real or imagined, explicitly or implicitly, hints at areas in which she needs to be accountable.

I realize my failure in "connecting" with her. I want to connect with her, but I fail at it. Part of the failure is me, and part of it is her blocking it because of her being overly protective.

[resecured]

Veggiemelt,

Gosh, it's good to have you back! I am going to print out what you have posted and hand it to my husband. Maybe then he will understand many things. He's better at reading the truth sometimes than hearing it.

For instance, today he is leaving to go out of town. So this morning he proceeds to just rub my back and squeeze me to tell me he wants sex. Doesn't say a word. He's already gunn ho and expects me to be gunn ho. When I really don't respond, he then tells me he will miss me. Then he starts his rubbing again on the back. Finally after many minutes, he tells me he loves me. I tell him that I can't just turn it on like him and add the fact that I have to get ready in 10 minutes to leave the house. It's not that I don't care or don't want to, it's the fact that he makes it seem so "nothing" with his ways.

He never asked me what was wrong, just realized that he wasn't going to get any so then politely pulls away. I get up and get ready and we have a nice conversation before I leave. He needed to ask me what was wrong. I usually respond to him. Lately, though I feel when this happens that he is just treating me like one of his past sluts. I know that is wrong, but seriously, I need to feel connected. I need to feel like he cherishes me. Not just slam bam, thank ya mamam. Especially since d-day occured.

I shouldn't have to bring up the fact of his ways to him. He's not a stupid man. We've been married almost 35 years, so he is aware of what I like and need. We are in the empty-nesters catagory. We were in the once a week trek but now with my negative thoughts it's down a bit.

I, with Veggie's posting in hand, will talk with him when he gets home. He does help around the house, alot. I have told him how much I appreciate that. We get along great for the most part, I just need him to be more aware of how he treats me in the bedroom. I can't stand to be reminded of his past. Which he does when he doesn't romance me first. Wives need to feel cherished. Like they are the jewels that they are. Oh my, what results there would be if that were to happen.

Seriously, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort, either. We are not asking for expensive things or major changes, just true effort.

Thanks Veggie. Those are just the words I need to start my conversation with him.

-RJ-

[km]

resecured - Does he really and truely know what makes you feel cherished? He needs a somewhat clear target to work toward (and it must be achievable - even if that means a progressive target as he grows).

If I could figure out what would actually make her feel cherished, I would focus on doing those things. There doesn't seem to be anything that does that though.

[SAM]

KM - have you asked her what makes her feel cherished? I'm sure you have, but it changes from month-to-month or year-to-year in a woman's mind.

So, if it has been while...ask again. If she doesn't know, tell her you would like her to think about it because you would like to do those things for her. If she tells you that you should "just know", unfortunately you cannot read her mind, nor she yours. Also, it may be a possible lesson in sharing with her what makes you feel respected and loved by her.

[km]

Doing what she says she wants doesn't make her feel cherished.

It is rather like a set of those little R*u*s*s*i*a*n carved dolls, except that there is no ultimate smallest one in the center, just an infinite regression of new moving targets. And I am supposed to "just know".

[veggiemelt]

Once again km, i have a feeling that more of the issues between you and your wife come from that attitude behind the actions and words rather then the actions and words themselves. I can't speak for your wife, and i am sure a fair part of it is the way that she reacts to you. but, if you are doing "what she wants" with resentment and/or an expectation of failure - she knows it and it comes across as not being genuine.

this is an issue that was very difficult in my marriage and one that was hard for me to get my husband to understand. basically all i can say is the answer really lies in a change of heart starting really on your part. i know that doesn't sound fair, but men are born as leaders and women follow. when she sees and feels your heart change - it will open the door for her to feel safe in exposing what she protects herself from inside.

km, my husband had to submit his issues to God and let God work in him and my part in that was to just leave him alone and accept lovingly whatever he had to give. she needs you to pray for her to support you and to let go of what she holds inside and she needs you to pray for yourself and willingly submit everything that is keeping you from being able to truly connect with her to God. km, only you know what your fears, frustrations and resentments truly are and where they come from.

the past has a way of being very difficult to let go, but the future cannot get better no matter how hard you try or how much you want it to change until you are ready and willing to let go of the past. to stop thinking about it and to stop being afraid to move on. it doesn't matter how old we are or how long we have been married. we can in fact all choose to change the parts of our lives that we do not want to relive and continue. yes, it is very difficult and in fact it is almost impossible without the help of God. but with him, it is possible.

there will be hard times and times where you will slide back along the way, but if you continue to believe in your Lord and have faith in what he truly wants for your marriage and if you look to him in all of that - it can happen. km, think about what you really want and need to say to your wife and start talking. if it causes a fight, then so be it. but if the words come from your heart and are not filled with resentment and fear, God will open the door for her to be able to truly understand what you are saying.

i have been a little hard on the male species here, and i hope it was not taken the right way. but in terms of my own life and my own husband - even through change, i continue to struggle with the fact that he seems, like most men, to resist or ignore the things that would actually help me to completely let go. we are at a place where we both want change, and he gets it right for a while, and then he forgets and starts doing the same old things again. by their own admittance - guys are lazy, they often don't put forth the effort and if they do, they resent it or let us know somehow that it took a huge effort on their part to give us what we needed. you guys can be upset by that, but you know that it is true. most guys think that women are a pain in the rear, even the ones that they love. well, women are high maintenance - we are. but if it is really so terrible and inconveience to try to please your wife, then why do you want to live with a woman in the first place.

rd, i know there is a lot more lacking in your relationship and in your case - you seem to really try very hard. you have some difficult circumstances. but everthing i have talked about applies to the other aspects of a relationship as well. intimate interaction of any kind of really all very much the same for a female. in a closer relationship - warming up a female is a start toward naked physical interaction - in your case, it would be a step toward any physical interaction or even getting her to warm up to you in any way. in truth, she probably does want to, she just can't and that is really what the article was getting at. often times women will act entirely different when how they feel to protect themselves from being hurt. she might not be able to accept anything you do because of everything she hold inside and needs to protect herself from. Maybe one day God will help her find a way to let some of that go so that you can share more with her.

[km]

veggiemelt - one of the basic fall of humankind issues, for women, is a determination not to follow male leadership. And that has been a clearcut fundamental issue in my marriage all along. She will not follow me on even the smallest, most trivial item - such as what route to drive to get somewhere (when I am driving) or where we are going out to eat (even when she just finished telling me to pick "any place" and I've picked one that she generally likes).