Growthtrac Community

[veggiemelt]

km, i would have to tend to agree with that. and i am going to tell you from my own experience where that comes from. guys in their younger years tend to be very immature and irrisponsible. men are born to become leaders, but they are not born as leaders, it is a process of growth and maturity. often times in the early years of marriage, men to do want to take on the responsibilites and play the role that women are ready for them to play when they committ to marriage. guys at 20 - 25 are not grown up enough to step up to the plate. it isn't really a fault, it is just that they are not ready. so women have to step up and play that role, essentially wear the pants in order to take care of themselves and their family.

with age, men grow and mature, some quickly - some slowly but in time it happens. however, often by that point, women have lost trust and faith in their abiity to be responsible and lead, so we have a difficult time giving up the drivers seat. that is in deed our downfall and where we need to be patiently reassured. but at the same time, we also have to learn to step aside and give our husbands the chance to lead. we have to proceed in blind faith and let him fail sometimes without rubbing it in his face. often times the burden we carry from our younger years of carrying the responsibility makes us bitter and resentful and it is difficult to let go. it is hard for us to give believe that our guys can make us feel secure and provided for after so many years of walking around behind him picking up the pieces. but that is where we are in deed wrong - because given the oportunity most men once they decide they want to be responsible are then smitten with failure because the woman in their lives are no longer receptive or accepting of what they are now able to achieve.

this is the trap i think ou are stuck in km - she doesn't believe in you because she isn't willing to let go and you continue to try expecting to fail. km, you are probably going to have to learn to lead with a very firm and confidant hand, leaving no room for doubt in your mind or hers. she can't change until she wants to, but you can. you can choose to change yourself and stop allowing her to tear you down. i am not telling you to act like an ass. i am just saying, stop leaving room for for her to find fault. stop believeing you are going to fail. stop doubting yourself and in time she will probably slowly back down.

[rdsmith3]

rd, i know there is a lot more lacking in your relationship and in your case - you seem to really try very hard. you have some difficult circumstances. but everthing i have talked about applies to the other aspects of a relationship as well. intimate interaction of any kind of really all very much the same for a female. in a closer relationship - warming up a female is a start toward naked physical interaction - in your case, it would be a step toward any physical interaction or even getting her to warm up to you in any way. in truth, she probably does want to, she just can't and that is really what the article was getting at. often times women will act entirely different when how they feel to protect themselves from being hurt. she might not be able to accept anything you do because of everything she hold inside and needs to protect herself from. Maybe one day God will help her find a way to let some of that go so that you can share more with her.

Thanks for the insights. G.K Chesterton once said, "The chief object of education is not to learn things but to unlearn things." I think that this is especially important in a second marriage, and neither of us has unlearned some things we need to unlearn.

What she is protecting herself from happened when she was a child, and 30 years of scar tissue has accumulated.

[rdsmith3]

however, often by that point, women have lost trust and faith in their abiity to be responsible and lead, so we have a difficult time giving up the drivers seat. that is in deed our downfall and where we need to be patiently reassured. but at the same time, we also have to learn to step aside and give our husbands the chance to lead. we have to proceed in blind faith and let him fail sometimes without rubbing it in his face.

I can see that happening. The other day, we were about to engage in a discussion that I knew would be potentially a heated one. Before we started, I said to my wife that we should pray first before discussing this particular topic. Her perspective is that I was trying to control the discussion, and that it should only be done my way. I told her I was trying to be a spiritual leader. She said, well I am not used to that. Unfortunately, we never did pray, the conversation went badly, and we both said some hurtful things. My dilemma is that if I insist on praying first the next time, then she will insist she is right that I am being controlling.

[km]

veggiemelt - So, she's unhappy with me for not leading. And I don't lead because she has fought tooth and nail against every attempt on my part to lead over the last 30 plus years. And it is all my fault.

And women get angry when men let on that they've gotten the impression that women are not logical.

[rdsmith3]

km

I know you're frustrated, but it made me laugh.

[SAM]

Guys in their younger years tend to be very immature and irrisponsible. men are born to become leaders, but they are not born as leaders, it is a process of growth and maturity. often times in the early years of marriage, men to do want to take on the responsibilites and play the role that women are ready for them to play when they committ to marriage. guys at 20 - 25 are not grown up enough to step up to the plate. it isn't really a fault, it is just that they are not ready. so women have to step up and play that role, essentially wear the pants in order to take care of themselves and their family.

This is like looking in the mirror at my marriage and also watching the marriages of my daughters who married at 19 and 21.

It wasn't until 8 years ago that God taught me a lesson in what it meant to serve/submit to my husband. We were in the middle of preparing to talk to another church. We were stuck on several paragraphs within our talk and bantering rather loudly with each other. I told my husband, "I've been praying about this all week, don't you think God might be telling me the direction we should take?" My husband looked me in the eye and said, "Since when are you the only one who has a direct link to Him? Don't you think I've been praying too? When are you going to trust me with Godly direction in our marriage?"

Ouch. Hit me with a hammer between the eyes. I had to go to my husband and God to ask for forgiveness that day. I finally let go and found I could trust my husband's direction. The talk went amazingly well - who would've thunk?

[veggiemelt]

veggiemelt - So, she's unhappy with me for not leading. And I don't lead because she has fought tooth and nail against every attempt on my part to lead over the last 30 plus years. And it is all my fault.

km, this made me laugh as well. and it is very similar to how my husband used to feel and still does at times. but the truth is - though we were both at fault - nothing really started to change until he started to realize and accept that in deed much of it, if not most of it - was his fault. and then he had to slowly admit to it without resenting me for his own short comings. it certainly was not all his fault - but one of us(not me) ran on his own adjenda with his own needs and wants in the forfront of his mind. he was inconsiderate, immature, irrisponsible, and very stubborn and self centered. one of us was trying to be a good parent, a good wife and a good partner - trying and often failing, but none the less trying and admitting to my own mistakes. the other one of us just sat bad and passed judgement and placed blame and refused to accept any fault. the true sorce of a different feeling in my marriage is and was the moment he was willing to see fault in himself and honestly show remorse for it. and since then, my job has been to try to forgive and forget and try to move forward - it is hard because i too at times to not feel he is deserving of another chance, but he is sincere most of the time and that pulls on my heartstrings and helps me to feel and show compassion and forgiveness.

[SAM]

And I don't lead because she has fought tooth and nail against every attempt on my part to lead over the last 30 plus years.

KM - counselors might call this passive aggressive behavior.

[km]

Passive? I don't really see much passive.

[Terri]

In my opinion, and if I'm wrong I truly apologize.

If more dads, were to talk to their daughters more growing up about sex and men in general. We as women especially myself. Will be better able to understand men.

The only thing I got from my dad is guys are filthy pigs. My younger brother told me sry gentlemen and ladies, but blue balls don't exist, it's a figment of guys imagination. My current husband laughed and told me that wasn't true.

I know my hubby, doesn't talk to our daughter about it. He says you better not! In order for girls to become good wives I believe that the men in their lives, mainly dads, have a frank talk. Not just leave it up to their husbands to teach them.

[SAM]

I think that is a great point. Discuss with your daughters how men think, but have mom present during the discussion too!

[resecured]

think the same could be said about mothers talking to their sons. I have been very straight forward with both my daughter and my son. My son to this day will talk to me about anything concerning sex. I have also taught him that a husband is to honor God, his wife, family, then job. He knows that my husband has not been a good husband but neither he nor my daughter know the details. My husband has just touched on a few details with our son concerning sexual matters. Our daughter - no way. I guess he's afraid of the questions he will be asked. So it has been left up to me to be the question and answer parent.

One thing I am trying to ensure, is that the cycle that my husband and FIL started will be broken. I want a better life for my son, his future wife, and children.

-RJ-

[SAM]

Thanks, RJ. Great observation about teaching sons too about women!

[km]

When she was in Junior High, I gave my daughter Debra Evans' The Christian Woman's Guide To Sexuality http://www.crossway.org/product/0891079491

I highly recommend it for those with daughters (of any age, really - I wanted some full, accurate, solidly Biblical info persented to her before she might start making errors). She is soon to be 21 and has been seeing a fine young man for 5 years (I expect an engagement announcement next year - once he's completed college and secured employment, she has 2 more years to go).

As to a work that really explains God's purposes behind sexuality, and how to analize issues relating to it (divorce, homosexuality, etc), I'd strongly recommend Daniel Heimbach's True Sexual Morality:Recovering Biblical Standards For A Culture In Crisis
http://www.crossway.org/product/1581344856
What I found most compeling in it was his excellent explaination of God's "do's" as to sex, and how those "do's" are what drive the corrolary "don'ts" relating to sex. It is the only work I've read so far that really hammered home the positive plan (and thus avoided the typica;l slam against us that we are a bunch of miserable killjoys who just want everyone else to be equally unhappy).

[landschooner]

Why does it take 15-20 years of marriage for a man to finally figure out what they should really do in their marriages? It's not about them or their sexual needs, it's about being a servant leader. This is what wins over the heart of a Christian woman. If a guy can "get this" before he causes irreparable damage to the heart of his wife, she will be open to providing him a release for his physical needs. If not, she has nothing left of her heart or body to give him. It has turned to stone. It's very difficult to reverse once the damage has been done.

I agree that men need to be servant leaders. This is good advice. Men need to seek to meet the needs of their wives. But that doesn't mean (not that you were implying that it will always be so - just making the point) that "she will be open to providing him a release for his physical needs." If her needs are being met, or her issues with fatigue are addressed, then perhaps she will be more open to meeting his needs. But perhaps not.

Marriage IS about his sexual needs. (and hers) In 1 Cor 7, sex is the reason Paul gives to get married. Otherwise, if we didn't need sex, we should stay single as he is. Sex with your spouse is a requirement. It is an obligation and refusal is sin. Again 1Cor 7. (not case by case refusal - life must be lived and responsibilities balanced, but sex MUST be a high priority, and ON the agenda of the marriage, and frequent enough that neither partner feels deprived)

I didn't say that its ONLY about his sexual needs, but that is a big part of marriage. if a prospective husband were to enter into marriage knowing that his sexual needs wouldn't be met, almost any pastor worth his salt would tell him that he's being foolish and not to enter into such a union. Why then would its importance fade AFTER marriage? A wife''s needs are extremely important and should be foremost on a husband's agenda, but a wife needs to put her husband's needs foremost as well.(Her primary needs may be sexual as well - though often, this is NOT at the top of her list) There are some women who are more "amorous" than their husbands, but this isn't as common. Most refusal cases, certainly not all, are a wife refusing the husband sex for various reasons. In general, this is sin. (There are always exceptions though extended long term refusal should never EVER exist) She has a responsibility, per the Apostle Paul, not to defraud her husband and vice versa. Even if she doesn't feel like they "talk" enough. Now, the husband is required to love his wife and to live with her in an understanding way. Her needs need to be paramount to him, but that's not to say that refusal can be abided. Christ is an example of this. Does he love us unconditionally? Yes. But does he place conditions on us? Expectations? Absolutely. See Rev 3 Laodicea.