Growthtrac Community

[km]

A quote from another member in another thread

my husband came back from a Christian men's conference where the speaker was giving a really good frank talk to the guys about sex and relationships. He basically said a man would only say no to sex if he was about to die! He said if a man could have sex all day every day... he probably would. it's just the way they are built. even older men, who may have trouble physically with it, still have a strong desire for sex.

I think most of the men I know fit that description. I think that few, if any, of our wives have even the very faintest hint of understanding that to be the case. For all of the reading and talking and conferencing and retreating that women's ministries do, why are so many good and diligent Christian women so clueless about what men are realy like? It seems that there is a great deal of effort put into emasculating men and/or trying to turn us into something we're not (and may not even be able to be - or worse yet, whom you wouldn't want to be with if you were successful in changing us into)? Why is there little to no instruction about this is the way men are, this is what they really need, and if they get their needs actually met they'll be so eager to please you that they'll literally kill themselves in the effort (and with a smile on their face)?

It seems to me that the church to an extent (and current society to a much greater extent) is setting women up to be guaranteed to be unhappy. Women seem to be being taught that they ought to have men who are a certain way (essentially larger, stronger, hairier girlfriends who happen to have male genetalia) when men simply aren't that way. And women also seem to be being taught that normal male features/traits/needs are gross and disgusting and that when their man is simply normal, he is in fact a filthy pig and must be changed (and yet, women aren't happy with their men once they've succeeded in neutering him).

I am puzzled by this.

[rdsmith3]

Yes, I agree 100% (but I am biased).

In August, after months (yes, months) of no physical intimacy, I point blank asked my wife to have sex. She somewhat reluctantly agreed. A week later, we had a brief discussion. She said something like, "Didn't we just do it?" I said, "Uh, no, it was actually a week ago." She then asked me what I thought was a reasonable frequency. It is one of those questions that a man has to answer very carefully. While I identify with the male speaker at the conference, I thought that a reply of "twice daily" would have resulted in me being labelled as a pervert or an unreasonable joker. On the other hand, if this was the beginning of some sort of negotiation process, I did not want to start with my best offer. So I replied "twice a week." The silence from her was very telling.

[km]

Two (to three) times a week would have been my "best offer".

We had a very brief exchange recently. I acknowledged that I want more than I suspect we'll end up compromising to, but I need more than once a month or less (we've gone as long as 11 months) and I'd like 5 per week (but was open to compromise), and I need some foreplay and the sort of variety/alternative play that (statistically) most couples engage in. I got called a "filthy pervert" who wants "gross and disgusting things". I did get us to more like once a week or so (we've had brief upticks before through' after past battles on this), but nothing else has come of it and there's no apparent prospects for improvement. I will try some more, but she is not really open to change and I am discouraged. I have doubts as to whether I can continue the marriage as is.

[SAM]

Not 100% in agreement with your assessment of what takes place in women's conferences about sexuality with their husbands. The ones I have attended encourage the gift of physical giving as serving your spouse.

I speak a few times a year to MOPS groups in the area I live. This is a topic I bring up every single time.

A few years ago I was sitting in an airport with my husband and their was a young man sitting across from us holding a new baby and feeding it. He was talking to his friend next to him.

The conversation went something like this -

I've come to realize my wife needs a lot of help with the kids. It takes her a lot of time to relax and clear her mind. If I help her with the dinner dishes, giving them baths, bedtime, and any chores that need to be finished up...
she has a whole lot more time for me in the evenings, will watch TV with me, and we have more romance.

I wanted to * tape this conversation and go over an shake this young man's hand... because he gets it.

Men, this is serving your wife. It may not be fun, but I guarantee you that her daily to-do list is twice as long as yours.
However, it's really important for me to communicate that list to my husband. Because, if I tell him what I need to get done before I can relax, he's more than willing to help. Four hands will always accomplish much more than two.

KM -
Based on your conversation with your wife - what was your response when she told you you were a filthy pervert? And, did you ask her what she feels is playful between you? If not, this is a discussion to be had - not avoided.

Did you ever give her the letter, or are you still awaiting the appropriate time?

[km]

SAM - I wasn't talking about women's conferences (at least not primarily). I would suspect that those women who do go to such conferences - particularly those where this is a topic - might be a self-selected audience of women who see some degree of need to be educated/instructed/informed on the topic and are open to some personal growth in that area.

I was focused more on the greater universe of the church. My wife, for example, has never gone to a women's conference or seminar. She doesn't do the women's ministries' activities. She sporadically attends the couples' small group we're in (I go alone at least as often as with her, if not more). She is on one of the church boards (overseeing an area that falls within her professional expertese) and volunteers in the nursery. She is never exposed to any sort of message on how to make a good Godly marriage, and none of her elder women in the church has ever attempted to cultivate any sort of mentoring friendship or made an effort to get her involved in the other things. I don't see much effort in that regard (granted, I would be likely not to see it - but I've heard other men and women complain that it is difficult to get oneself insinuated into the fabric of the church unless one has the sort of bullish/aggressive personality that lends itself easily to crashing into groups).

I don't see the reach out to the ones who are proudly floundering - or worse, I see the counter-productive super-sympathetic reach out ("he does what? you poor dear, what a beast, I'll pray for you!") that cements them into the bad situation and makes resolving the issues less likely.



As to my individual situation, I do laundry and vaccuuming and dishes and some of the cooking and grocery shopping and paying the bills and such (I did most of the outside stuff before we went to the townhouse where that is done by the association). I'd do a lot more if I could do more things to her satisfaction (she is hyper perfectionist about things - although I and many others in her life can't discern the criteria she judges perfection on). I serve her within my capabilities to the extent that I can (and she will permit). I don't believe I'm fairly tarred with the 'insensitive/unhelpful husband' label. Yes, I am far from perfect, but I make much more effort than the core of guys I see around me.

what was your response when she told you you were a filthy pervert? And, did you ask her what she feels is playful between you? If not, this is a discussion to be had - not avoided

I told her that what I desire is right smack in the middle of what couples (even churched couples) do. The conversation ended there (as it always has), when she shut it off. I can't force her to have a conversation on this, any more than I can force her to do anything else. No, I hadn't given her the letter, but the progress I saw before that had me holding off seems to have halted - so I guess I need to dust it off (and update it as needed) and go with that.

[SAM]

For all the reading and talking and conferencing and retreating that women's ministries do, why are so many good and diligent Christian women so clueless about what men are really like?

KM, I thought this is the direction you might be addressing based on this sentence. It was kind of hard to discern that you were speaking about the greater universe of the church.

I would like to ask the question in reverse - For all the reading and talking and conferencing that men's ministries do, why are so many God fearing diligent Christan men so clueless about what women are really like?

Why does it take 15-20 years of marriage for a man to finally figure out what they should really do in their marriages? It's not about them or their sexual needs, it's about being a servant leader. This is what wins over the heart of a Christian woman. If a guy can "get this" before he causes irreparable damage to the heart of his wife, she will be open to providing him a release for his physical needs. If not, she has nothing left of her heart or body to give him. It has turned to stone. It's very difficult to reverse once the damage has been done.

But I've heard other men and women complain that it is difficult to get oneself insinuated into the fabric of the church, unless one has the sort of bullish/aggressive personality that lends itself easily to crashing into groups.

If someone is a church environment where there are cliches, and it becomes difficult to integrate oneself into groups and activities, then this is of great concern. There are dysfunctional churches, especially when the pastor and/or elders turn a blind eye to the interactions of its church members. The church was never meant to be exclusive, but inclusive.

Is this a discussion you have chosen to have with your pastor? If not, consider it. I wouldn't hesitate to have it with mine.


RD - twice a week is not an unreasonable request.

[km]

Why does it take 15-20 years of marriage for a man to finally figure out what they should really do in their marriages? It's not about them or their sexual needs, it's about being a servant leader. This is what wins over the heart of a Christian woman. If a guy can "get this" before he causes irreparable damage to the heart of his wife, she will be open to providing him a release for his physical needs. If not, she has nothing left of her heart or body to give him. It has turned to stone. It's very difficult to reverse once the damage has been done.

Men (and women too) are getting very conflicting messages here - in the egalitarian churches, men are not being taught to be leaders at all - nor in society in general. There, it is a message of egalitarian equality (if not non-differentiation) and equal partnership. We never know when we are to lead - when we are not (we get punished for doing either - seemingly without rhyme or reason).

It often the case that men mature somewhat slower than women, and have had mixed messages and minimal/nonexistant/counter-productive mentoring (and what women say they want is very often not at all what they actually want). Leadership is hard - and takes great wisdom, which takes time and training to grow into. It is often also the case that women resist men's attempts to lead, either passively, subtlely or in an outright oppositional manner. 15-20 years is often what it takes to learn through trial and error, where errors takes time to be revealed and there are often no clear cut 'report cards' to tell you what part of what you did was the error and what part was the right part.

When you do many activities, you get immediate feedback as to what you did wrong and there are often guides and teachers to tell exactly how to do it right. You can take golf lessons, or skiing lessons or whatever - but there are no husband lessons to be taken.

Given what you say, I fear that I am fully in the "stone heart" scenario. That is very disheartening to me.

[SAM]

I agree, the church is sorely lacking. And, to those that God has provided wisdom to mentor, it is often not shared, but held as a little prize package that no one can have.

However, at some point we cannot blame the church, society, or others for our lack of spiritual maturity and wisdom. We are equally responsible for sticking our noses in the bible for teaching.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

But there are no husband lessons to be taken.

That is where you are mistaken - husband lessons are prevalent throughout scripture.

There are mentors in the bible - God has placed them there to teach us. There is a wonderful book that was life-changing for me called The Divine Mentor by Wayne Cordeiro. It is a wonderful example of how God uses the people in the bible to mentor us even when there is no earthly person to do so.

[rdsmith3]

but I've ehard other men and women complain that it is difficult to get oneself insinuated into the fabric of the church unless one has the sort of bullish/aggressive personality that lends itself easily to crashing into groups).

This is a side topic, but I've noticed that at our church, too. My wife, with her family therapist background, sees this as being an inbred system, and takes it somewhat personally. I think she views the "in" crowd as a high school clique. She wasn't in it back then, and isn't now. I can see that line of thinking, but I don't take it personally. It can be frustrating, though, to hear an announcement that the church is starting a such-and-such ministry, being led by one of the well known names, and to think that I have something I could contribute to that but nobody knows that.

[rdsmith3]

Why does it take 15-20 years of marriage for a man to finally figure out what they should really do in their marriages? It's not about them or their sexual needs, it's about being a servant leader. This is what wins over the heart of a Christian woman. If a guy can "get this" before he causes irreparable damage to the heart of his wife, she will be open to providing him a release for his physical needs. If not, she has nothing left of her heart or body to give him. It has turned to stone. It's very difficult to reverse once the damage has been done.

A man needs to be accountable for being the best possible husband. Having said that, I believe there are a number of reasons why some husbands do not understand their role. First, lack of good role models (e.g., father). Second, lack of good pre-marital counseling by church. Third, lack of ongoing education within church. Fourth, men keep to themselves and do not have anyone to whom they are accountable.

However, SAM, I am bothered that a woman would 1) wait so long before saying anything to her husband, and 2) more importantly, not have the ability to forgive.

[SAM]

1However, SAM, I am bothered that a woman would 1) wait so long before saying anything to her husband, and 2) more importantly, not have the ability to forgive

I know women do not wait long before they say anything. If you go back to the first few years of marriage, there were words and actions that would clue you into how she felt. It may have been expressed it moments of crying or extreme frustration that you weren't understanding how she felt about things. However, unless it is face-to-face confrontation(not usually a woman's style of communication), it is not likely a husband will "clue in" - and if he does, he become defensive rather than reflective about the words or actions that caused hurt. (This was my personal experience.)

The forgiveness process is a difficult one, and the female skin layer is much thinner than that of a man. So the hurt, when it happens, penetrates the skin and the body at a much deeper level. A man may do five loving and giving actions that start the healing process, but then all he has to do is one unloving action, and it completely erases the previous five. He starts at ground zero again, and often goes into deficit territory.

There is a desire to forgive, but more importantly, there is a innate need in women to protect the heart from further hurt. Thus, what may appear to be unforgiveness is really a mode of protection. It takes a really long time to tear down the walls. Guys want immediate results because of their innate need to solve problems. Unfortunately, it does not work that way.

Regarding pre-marital counseling -
How many hot to get to the altar couples do you know that are willing to spend 20-40 hours in pre-marital training? Given the opportunity, most will say the time commitment is not worth it. It's more important to plan for the wedding day, than it is to plan for the future (a marriage).

If you recall, my husband and I are marriage mentors. We spend anywhere from 10-15 hours with a couple. Add another 4 hours for a financial class, and another 18 hours for a six-week pre-marital class offered in our community... and it is quite a commitment. Of the preliminary questionnaires sent out to couples, 50% are never returned. Of the remaining 50%, only 25% make it to all of the classes or drop out prior to completion. That does make for great odds of building marital success.

[km]

That is where you are mistaken - husband lessons are prevalent throughout scripture.

OK - indeed, there are.

I was nominally Christian until about 42. I married at 22. So, was I screwed from the start - no hope here? After all, I don't have the keys to the "way back machine".

[SAM]

So, it took twenty + years to get to this point... then another 5-10 to let God start working on your heart and mind.
Unraveling the first twenty years is going to take some time.

I celebrated anniversary #33 this year. We finally hit our stride eight years ago, and we still hit an occassional bump in the road where we need to ask for forgiveness. However, we did not get to this place without several rounds of counseling.

There is hope if your can get your wife to understand the seriousness of the breakdown in your marriage and how badly you want to heal it.

I cannot imagine living my life without my husband by my side... until death parts us. I didn't use to think that way.

[km]

SAM - no matter where one's marriage is at, or how long it tool to get there, unraveling things will never happen if both members of the couple don't ever start unraveling.

The past is immutable. Only the future can be changed. The future can't be changed if the past is clung to.

[SAM]

True -

So, how do you go about unraveling the past and looking toward the future, if avoidance is the path of least resistance?

It appears for the past several weeks you've been watching for glimpses of hope that you could hang your hat on toward possible changes in her. Maybe, just maybe, she'll show me she still cares. Have you considered she may be showing you in her own way?

Change causes anxiety in most people... and perhaps, you have grown so accustomed to the relationship you have, that pushing for change scares the daylights out of you. Therefore, avoiding the inevitable talk about your concerns, desires, and hope for your marriage?