Growthtrac Community

[veggiemelt]

Thanks Sam, you are a good teacher.

Terri, I have another concern for you here. Growing up with the mindset the you were taught is very confusing and I am all too familiar with how that all works. One of the things that happens when we are not taught to love our bodies is that we as women allow ourselves to be abused and to be disrespected. Society has a stronghold on our minds and we have an fabricated mentality of what men want in us. Because we are born to serve, we often put our own needs and our own self respect even at risk because we feel it is what we have to do to prove our love to our husband. We have to give him what we wants. Internet porn has escalated this problem to epidemic ranks and has screwed upthe minds of men and women alike. We see women with perfect bodies screaming in ecstasy and we believe this is what our men want from us. And men think this is what they want to see, they think this is what a woman in pleasure looks like.

The truth is Terri, what he really wants to see is for you to feel completely free in his presence, to let go of yourself and feel pleasure. I always thought is was ridiculous that women would even scream during sex. I always had orgasms with my husband, and never felt the need to make a bunch of noise or scream, but sometimes I did it because I thought he wanted to see that. The orgasms were never fake, but the act I often exagerated was just that - an act to try to please him. Once I learned to experience physical pleasure in a higher form - an emotional form, I came to that point of losing control. I learned that when you feel that relaxed loving touch on my skin - my body and my voice did respond to that pleasure, in fact I couldn't hold it in. And my husband got to finally experience watching a woman cry and scream under the touch of his hand. Porn displays women screaming from sexual pleasure. But in reality, the only thing that truly brings you to that point is something more sentual and emotional, it is a different form of intimacy and a different form of pleasure. It is actually an emotional high that feels like nothing else on this earth and it draws you so close to the one that you love.

The thing is Terri, you can't get there unless you respect yourself and love yourself and your body. And you can't love your body or yourself if you let it be abused. Doing things with your husband that you are not able to fully enjoy yourself, is not good for either of you and it in fact takes you further away from the point where you can learn to be completely sexually free with your husband. The point where you can truly share yourself with him. Doing things with him that make you feel bad about yourself is not an act of love.

Oral sex is not a sin, and it can be pleasurable to both partners when it is not self serving. But it is difficult for most women to find the line between performing sexual favors and learning to make love with your mouth. There is in fact a huge difference, one is abusive and disrespectful - the other is an act of love. Anal sex is another point of difficulty for most women, but some men will push for this experience and feel that you are showing him how much you love him by letting him do it. I personally have never thought this could be an act of love as it is actually painful for most women and it can harm your body. If you feel it is degrading or it makes you feel bad about yourself, you should not agree to it - ever. You need to tell him how it makes you feel and stop doing this to yourself. If he wants to explore all of your body, that is not wrong or sinful, but there are other alternatives that will give relatively the same experience without harming you mentally or physically. Manual anal stimulation is an option. Fully exploring the body of your partner is not a sin, but it has to be done with respect and dignity and should not cause shame.

You have obviously had some experiences that probably make it difficult to completely love and respect yourself. But you do not have to carry them with you for all of your life. Christ died for us and in doing so, he gave us the chance to be new and whole in him. All that has hurt you and broken you can be washed away and you can be pure and beautiful and unstained. You can let go of what holds on to you inside and you can experience a new beginning with the man who loves you now. Reach out to Jesus and let him draw out the pain from your heart and your mind so that you can truly love yourself and in that new beginning you can truly love your husband as a whole and beautiful woman. Terri, let go of the shame and allow yourself to be forgiven. We get to experience a completely different life when we find the strength within ourselves to truly let go. I pray for you today and for myself as well in my own struggle - accept the love of Christ and be forgiven. The hardest part - is letting go.

[rdsmith3]

good stuff, vm

I know a woman who would really benefit from your wisdom and perspective.

[SAM]

What would happen if you printed the posts Veggiemelt wrote for this woman to read?

[km]

veggie - That is the sort of thing I was hoping the ladies would jump in with (so I didn't have to try).

Thanks for the kind words about my attempt to place hold until you got here (and, alas, no - the wisdom I've gained here and elsewhere over the last few years has done me no good in my own home - making me feel awkward giving advice to anyone, much less struggling to help opposite sex issues).

[veggiemelt]

km, You are in deed a blessing to the women on this forum and most likely much more to your wife then you give yourself credit for. It is very comforting for a female to hear that men in fact do care and somewhat understand what we feel. One day I hope that God will give you the strength to speak as openly and gently to your wife as you have learned to speak on this forum. As always, I pray for you. It is a process of babysteps my friend and most of the time I hate to admit, we are just as responsible for any **** we step in as we take those babysteps. Marriage is a difficult lesson, one I have to continue to be taught and still struggle to not get stuck in whatever I step in along the way. I know you have a lot more in you then what you let come out at home. And I think your wife knows it too. And I think she probably has a lot more love and respect for you then she is able to show to you as well. It is always difficult to know that you share your life with someone who cannot fully expose themself to you and to love someone with whom you cannot express openly what you hold inside. Everyday, I look at myself and at my husband and know that there is more. But knowing that there is more - is what motivates us to keep trying to find it. And fear is what seems to hold most of us back or at least makes discovery a really, slow and tedious process. The lesson God has to keep trying to teach me over and over again is that I have to work on myself and let God work in my husband. I can't change him, but miraculously - there is often change when I stop looking at him and start looking in the mirror. I hate that fact, but it is the truth. And I wonder why I have to hit over the head with a hammer repeatedly to realize it.

[FaithHopeJoy]

Veggiemelt - you have truly been blessed with a real gift. Your wise and encouraging words for Terri are sure to have a wider impact. We have missed you over recent weeks. Praying all is well with/for you.

km - what can I say? It is sad that you're not seeing sustainable positive change at home. I can tell it is draining you of energy and taking you close to the point of giving up - but don't lose heart. Many of us here are praying for your marriage.

FHJ

[km]

SAM"- it isn't uncommon to hear wives say that their husbands won't read a book or do a marriage building thing. it is less common, but clearly exists, that wives won't.

I read a lot. she won't read things that I ask her to (or picks out something at a glance to twist and attack with from something short - like printout of good posts like veggie's).

[Terri]

Thank you so very much veggimelt, I get the impression you understand exactly where I'm coming from and that is so helpful. That was so inspiring and beautifuly written.

I've been away for awhile, well, hubby and I had to get back to the very basics. Even though we both have been married before. We actually went back and started dating again.
He will come to the bedroom door and asks if he can take me to the kitchen or dining room, and sometimes the living the room for dinner. Money is tight so we have a date in home. At night, it's a simple good night kiss. Like the end of our date. So once a week when we join together, I don't feel so pressured, scared, dirty, and awkward.

We are doing great! I still haven't had any yet, but I'm not stressing out like I used to. Yes, big big stressor. Hubby, is spending a lot of initimate little moments w/o the sex. A little making out but not so much sex.

Things are going great! I can tell in a way that I'm finally realizing that sex isn't a drudgery and something that is loathsome. I'm for the first time ever, really coming around to enjoy it and not just the closeness. I am now looking forward to our once a week time together.

Thanks again always appreciated

[km]

I think this is a good idea (at least as one route to try) - take it slow, scale back and try to ease into a good track.

This may come accross as off-kilter - but if you're trying to learn to enjoy ice cream, as such, you might be better off going slowing, with small servings, and stick to plain vanilla - to begin with (like you're trying now). Going all out ambitiously with large helpings, wild flavors, and piling on the wierd toppings (which sounds like your prior course) seems like a less likely route to success.

In any event, this seems to be helping - so stick with it. It sounds like hubby is being very supportive - make sure you let him know that you appreciate is paience and willingness to help. Telling him this clearly will hep build the intimacy and connection that you need, and inspire him to stick with the program enthusiastically though with the restraint you need for the time being.

[Terri]

OH my I did miss a lot. I'm so sry all. Km, you're insights have been a blessing, I have prayed about this for years. I have forgiven my ex husband for the abuse.

A lot of the issues I had at least out of the bedroom have been dealt with and is no longer an issue. Sex, has always been an issue for me. Ever since I was a young child. Again, that is being dealt with as well.

I thank God everyday for my husband, he has been very patient, loving, understanding, and caring. He is even having more fun than I am. Granted we aren't having sex as much or doing things that we used to. However, it's been amazing! I'm learning more about what I like versus what he likes and enjoys. It has brought us closer together in ways I never thought it could be. We are moving in the right direction.

Km, I know you were saying that you were uncomfortable giving me advice but your advice helped me in ways that some of my women friends could never help me with. Girl talk is nice, but sometimes a mans perspective is what we as women need. My dad never said much to me about sex. Well, all I really knew is that (sry) but some men are sex starved maniacs. You're insight has been very helpful. I hope things get better for you and your marriage.

I should be getting the first book that KM mentioned on Monday. The rest will still take some time.

Ty all so very much I can't express my gratitude enough.

[km]

If you're referring to the Ethridge book, I really think you will like it. But the others recommended here (by all) were a retty uniformly good batch. I happened to think Ethridge simply managed to convey the right mix of optimism, need to do a bit of stretching and reordering one's mindset, and anticipation of getting on with a fun adventure. When you get down to it, the anatmy and mechanics talk is really all the same from every author - just the presentation changes.

I am glad you think my thoughts were helpful. I've been through a lot of relational difficulty over the last 30'ish years - it is good to know that people are getting some benefit from it (I just wish I was of those people).

It sounds like tings are looking up - I really hope you enjoy hte journey and destination for this adventure - I really think it offers the possibility of getting as close to experiencing a bit of heaven here on earth as humans are allowed to get.

[veggiemelt]

Terri
I am so glad to hear that you and your husband have taken things back to a healthy place where you can rebuild. I think going back to the dating phase and trying to just set everything a side and start over - is absolutely the smartest and healthiest approach to rebuild a marriage. It gives you space and lets you be an individual again and learn to respect one another as someone seperate and individual from ourselves.

You are a very lucky woman that your husband has agreed to this. Most men would not. I hope you have given him a big thank you on this one. It takes a very mature male to see the value in giving you this opportunity. He obviously loves you very much.

I asked for this approach to healing and rebuilding in my own marriage because working together and owning businesses together for so many years had turned us more into business partners and friends and though we were always close, the marriage relationship had started to crumble in many ways and as husband and wife we were drifting apart. After my youngest graduated I felt an extreme sense of emptiness and wondered if when my children were gone - my husband was still the man I wanted to grow old with. As business parters and friends we were great together, but as a lover and a romantic partner - it just wasn't there anymore - at least not that I could feel, there was a coldness and hostility for both of us - we had become strangers at home and in our bed, and I literally felt like I was sleeping with someone I barely knew and did not feel romantic feelings for. I knew that I still loved him, but I just couldn't feel it or see the same things in him and he sort of felt the same way.

I wanted to go back and just start slow and find one another again,I needed to get to know him again and just spend time together that was not about work or money. I asked if we could take the dating approach, but he would not agree and thought the idea was ridiculous and stupid. So we have spent the better part of three years trying to rebuild the hard way. I don't regret the journey as I have learned much a long the way. But the road you guys have taken is admirable and I pray you will form many good memories and a very strong bond in the process. Most marriages do not find this path to recovery. God has given you a tremendous blessing here, in many more ways then you may even realize right now.

I am so happy to hear that you are doing well and so excited for you in this opportunity to rebuild your marriage in a healthy and productive way. Please keep us posted. Your story is very encouraging to others.

[Terri]

I have tears at the moment after reading your post. I know that I'm truly blessed in my marriage. I have even found a way that makes my hubby swoon. Yes, swoon. I would never have thought that he or any man could be so loving and understanding. I have never felt more in touch with myself than I have over the last few weeks. I'm happier and even healthier than I have been in my whole life.

Yes, at first my husband thought it would be stupid and way expensive and on and on he went. So I took it into my own hands I started dinner one night changed clothes, grabbed a couple of candles a couple of wine glasses and filled them with grape juice. ( I like wine glasses and use juice instead). Took a blanket out of the closet and had him sit on the floor with me.

I told him see dating isn't expensive or stupid. He agreed but not until afterwards.

Marriage for me isn't hard what's hard is letting him know how much I love, respect, care, and honor him. I can never repay him for what he has done for me. He told me his single greastest joy other than the kids would be to make sure I'm happy everyday. His first goal is for me to have the experience that I haven't had yet. He stated he would do ANYTHING for that.

Well ty all again your prayers advice and thoughts are always appreciated

[km]

It sounds like the stage is set - and you're headed inthe right direction.

I like th think that a majority of men would react as your hubby did - if the situation were simply explained so as t allow him to understand and he has a clear role to play (or 'job' to do). Men function best in such circumstances, and tend to respond well. Affirming your respect and love, and appraciation will keep him on task too.

If - no, when - all does seem pretty well worked out, and you're ready to declare success, pleas estick with us. You'd be a valuable voise to help those who come along after you (and some that are already here).

[veggiemelt]

Terri,
I read an interesting article that reminded me of something you said in one of your earlier posts. I was going to try to copy and paste it for you, but I can't seem to find it again now. I did however write down the Bible versus when I read it as I found it very interesting and wanted to look them up.

Basically, to sum it up - the articles speaks about women who experience ejaculatory orgasm in trama, describing women in car accidents, child birth, sexual assault and other situations where there is an intense emotional response - triggering fear, extreme anxiety, physical pain or other circumstances that create an uncontrollable emotional response.

As it is not all that common for most women to experience what is considered an ejaculatory climax. It is only achieved in a state of complete physical release and loss of control. Most women do not have the ability to let go that far during a normal or even above average physical encounter. It takes far too long for our minds to unwind and most of our guys aren't fond of the idea of "hours" of foreplay. Trauma or shock however - completely unlocks the mind and that is the theory behind what this article was saying. Women will sometimes experience a complete physical release during an event or situation that is beyond their emotional or mental ability to deal with in the moment.

Although open reference to female ejaculatory climax is rising, it still carries a stigma. Basically, no one really wants it to happen because it just seems really embarrassing and if there is ever a point in your life where it has happened - you don't want it to happen again - because it is very misunderstood and it is often mistaken for urine rather then a climactic response. Women are ashamed of it, so they don't let themselves cross over into an uncontrolled state because of the fear of it. Not only is it embarrassing, but in a way it almost seems pornographic or wrong.

This is a topic that I do not believe has been explored on this forum. But maybe it should be. As stated in this article as well as other I have read before - there is a belief by many doctors and phsycologists that the primary reason many women cannot experience regular climax is in fact because they are afraid of ejaculatory climax either because it has happened to them in the past or because they are afraid it will happen to them if they let go of control enough to experience a full orgasm. Many women will peak - but never let go. Your mind shifts at the peak almost like a reflex and then it stops, rather then flowing over the top to climax.

It just make me think Terri, that maybe there is something really simple that is keeping you from getting all the way there. Maybe it is just the fear of being embarrassed. Below are the Bible versus from that article. Maybe you could use them to start a conversation with your husband that will help you find a point where you are comfortable with whatever happens when you get to the point that your body wants to let go.

You are not alone Terri, this is almost a taboo subject. And women really have no idea how guys feel about it because it is just not something that is ever talked about. It seems a little disgusting really, but it shouldn't be. To put it rather bluntly - guys have no problem shooting runny liquid everywhere - why should we? And yet, we do - because it just seems a little weird because it has never been accepted or promoted as being perfectly normal. The most logical theory I have ever read on the production of female fluid is that is it produced in glands in and around the back of the urithra - common refered to as the "G" spot. The fluids begin to produce with arousal and stimulation of the clitorus and/or interior stimulation of the G spot. The fluid builds put is not released unless a full loss of control is experienced. If the fluid is not released during intercourse, it is expelled as urine. The theory states that the feeling of needing to urinate during arousal and intercourse is actually caused by the pressure of this fluid, and not the actual need to urinate. As a female it seems strange to experience the sensation of feeling anything other then urine flow through your urithra. But semen is expelled through a man's urithra, so why couldn't the same thing happen to a female? The truth is can and it does, but it is not something that feels normal by any means - it does not however feel the same as peeing. And it is ridiculous that once again we are raised to believe it is not normal and possibly even wrong or freakish. Seriously - what is wrong with what women are being taught - the perception of the female body and its functions was better understood and accepted a thousand years ago? I really don't think God wants us to continue to pass on these morbid misunderstands for yet another generation to be confused by.

I Hope these will help you, Terri. So happy to hear things are going well. You are inspiring to many!

"Your lips, my bride, drip honey; Honey and Milk are under your tongue. And the fragrance of your garments is like the fragrance of Lebanon. A garden enclosed is my beloved, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain ready to burst."
Song of Solomon 4:11 - 12
(there are many who interpret this entire verse as reference to the female genital region. Take note of the reference to milk and honey under your tongue. Female ejaculatory fluid is similar to really watered down milk. It is the translucent milky clear color of semen, it can be thick or watery in texture. It does in fact resemble male ejaculation that does not contain semen.

"Nard and saffron, calamus and cinnamon, With all the tress of frankincense, Myrrh and aloes, along with all the finest spices. You are a garden spring. A well of fresh water, and streams flowing from Lebanon."
Song of Solomon 4:14 - 15

"I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride, I have gathered my myrrh along with my balsam. I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey. I have drunk my wine and my milk. Eat friends. Drink and imbibe deeply, O lovers."
Song of Solomon 5:1
(This passage has been referred to as a description of Cunnilingus - if you don't recognize this term - look it up, sad that the term fellatio is so widely recognized isn't it.)

Some claim that female ejaculatory fluid has no flavor - others claim it can only be tasted on the tongue of your true love. Terri, I hope you have the chance to find that out for yourself. Sadly,even that sounds dirty, but it comes straight from the Bible itself. We have to stop letting the world steal from us the divine pleasures that God created for us to enjoy.