Growthtrac Community

[BH Manners]

BH...Good to have you here.

I've found that venues like this -- chat, IM, forums, e-mails -- do not lend themselves to in-depth spiritual Q&A.

Don't get me wrong. I could go on sharing the "reasons" I believe -- both intellectual and personal experience -- I'd love to do that. Sadly, these discussions often downgrade to debates, which is unproductive.

So, if you have questions -- if you're "seeking" -- I can point you to resources. On the other hand, if you've already made up your mind and just want a good debate, I'm not your guy. And this probably isn't your forum.

Spritual conversations are personal and impassioned -- they require a "relationship" and face time. That can't be accomplished here.

Your friend Janine invited me over here to Growthtrac. It seems like a nice little cozy place to be so I thought I would join up.

Okay-- so where are you "at"? You're asking questions, but sounds like you've already made up your mind [?].

Hey, shouldn't you guys be outside BBQ'ing?

I had my Memorial Day BBQ with the family Friday afternoon.

We had BBQ'ed beef and chicken as well as pork chops. :inlove:

I didn't come here to argue for its own sake. I am doing an experiment to see just how much the common Christian actually knows about his/her own Bible (not that I wouldn't mind doing a little deconverting of folk in the process). Frankly, I have posted over at Church of Christ North Board, Grace Centered Magazine Board, Internet Infidels Board, Christian Forums, GrowthTrac, Freedom's Ring, Berean Spirit, and several others and find the believers somewhat lacking in basic knowledge of their own Bible.

... you guys better get to work teachin' them youg'ins out there or some big bad wolf commie atheist like me may steal them from the fold. :p

Seriously, you guys are VERY ignorant of your own Bible, and a lot of your preachers have no business being in the profession they are in either. No offense meant, just being blunt.

[webacus]

Pork Chops... Good Stuff..

BH, first things first.

Let's make your "experiment" a little more strategic... Before testing Christian's knowledge of the bible, it might be smarter to back up a bit.

You think life was created by chance? The vastly complex DNA molecule ... containing error-correcting digital code... Created by random chance? Information scientists will tell you that information, codes and programs never arrive by chance.

You believe a lightening bolt or some other source, struck a puddle three million years ago? But, even with all of the lab equipment available today, bio-chemical expertise, university expertise... It is still impossible to create DNA.

And amino acids, the proper combination necessary for life ... very complex.

Seems to me it's a bigger step of faith to believe a designer [God] DOES NOT exist.

It's as if you're walking along the beach and you discover a wrist watch. Would you deduce that it evolved from pond scum? Of course not. Yet you look at a human being and say it wasn't created? The human eye alone is far more complex than a watch.

[Wynne]

LOL Barry!

I've seen your avatar elsewhere.

It's a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

But it's a Tyrannosaurus Rex that gives a "thumbs up" to everyone.

Are you sure, son, that it doesn't bite a thumb off of everyone? :laugh:

[Janine]

Toss 'at there lizard a thumb-burger, fellas!

Seriously, BH, it warms my little heart-cockles to "see" ya here.

And I appreciate the way you manage to state your stance without name-calling and stuff.

But, frankly, the focus of these Growthtrac forums... Forii? What's the real plural of "forum"?... isn't debating, as Dave said.

Well, ya might get us to debate a little bit about worship styles, or what exactly honoring your father and mother will mean when they grow elderly, but I doubt you'll get many takers on your particular issue.

BTW, please maintain contact with us now that you're connected, for times when you need something we can help with.

{{{saying a prayer for BH right now...}}}

[Davep]

BH

If you were to draw a circle, and say that circle represents all the knowledge, facts, and information of the universe. And then draw another circle will represents all the knowledge, facts and information you know yourself. That empty space between your smaller circle and the big circle?

Is there a possiblity that God exists in that part of the circle in which you have no knowledge of?

[BH Manners]

[quote="webacus"][/quote]
"""Pork Chops... Good Stuff..

BH, first things first.

Let's make your "experiment" a little more strategic... Before testing Christian's knowledge of the bible, it might be smarter to back up a bit. """"""

BH: It's too late! I already have and find their knowledge wanting.

"""""You think life was created by chance?""""""

BH: Yes, tell me presenting empirical proof how god either created himself out of nothing or just always has existed. If this is possible for I god in your opinion I see no reason why it is not true for the universe.

""""" The vastly complex DNA molecule ... containing error-correcting digital code... Created by random chance? Information scientists will tell you that information, codes and programs never arrive by chance."""""""

BH: So? Evolutionary biologists will disagree. Four billion years is an awfully long time. Check out this website: www.talkorigins.com and research the observed cases of evolution. I see no reason that these "programs" as you call it could not have arrived by chance.

"""You believe a lightening bolt or some other source, struck a puddle three million years ago? But, even with all of the lab equipment available today, bio-chemical expertise, university expertise... It is still impossible to create DNA.""""

BH:I will have to do some more research about your claim about DNA not being created. If memory serves me correctly, scientists have in fact not only created DNA from scratch, they have created a whole bacteria. They were using a previously existing pathogen as a model but they took a map of its DNA and created their own replica of the DNA and cell body on their own. They have only known of DNA for 50 years anyway and have not been working as long as mother nature.

"""And amino acids, the proper combination necessary for life ... very complex."""

BH: Yes.

Seems to me it's a bigger step of faith to believe a designer [God] DOES NOT exist.


BH: I obviously don't agree.

"""It's as if you're walking along the beach and you discover a wrist watch. Would you deduce that it evolved from pond scum? Of course not. Yet you look at a human being and say it wasn't created? The human eye alone is far more complex than a watch."""""


BH: There is a website about this "clock challenge". Let me see if I can find it.

[BH Manners]

BH

If you were to draw a circle, and say that circle represents all the knowledge, facts, and information of the universe. And then draw another circle will represents all the knowledge, facts and information you know yourself. That empty space between your smaller circle and the big circle?

Is there a possiblity that God exists in that part of the circle in which you have no knowledge of?

Perhaps.


Now the challenge for you: take the same circle and provide absolute objective empirical evidence that there are not many gods there or perhaps there is one god that is not Yahweh but possibly Allah or some other deity. This is why I reject your model. You can't PROVE just WHICH God or Gods are there.

[webacus]

... absolute objective empirical evidence ...

Whoa! Absolute proof? How many everyday decisions do you make based on "absolute objective empirical evidence"? That's a very high standard.

I doubt you'll find absolute proof for the existence of God or the non-existence of God. Even our legal system doesn't require "absolute proof" when deciding a verdict.

Let's be intellectually honest.

You can't PROVE just WHICH God or Gods are there.

Based on your standard of "absolute objective empirical evidence", no. However, I believe the evidence does lean toward the bible [it's *] and Jesus [his deity, miracles and resurrection] being true. That’s what set's Christianity apart from other religions.

But, again... First things first: If you have a problem with the existence of God, start there before testing Christianity.

I'd have to ask: If there really is a God, who has more to lose, you or me? I know that's a harsh question, but let's do a gut-check here... I hope you’re right.
:;):

[BH Manners]

Quote
... absolute objective empirical evidence ...


Whoa! Absolute proof? How many everyday decisions do you make based on "absolute objective empirical evidence"? That's a very high standard.

<<<<BH: I am just asking you to do what Christians ask of me. If they demand absolute objective empirical proof from me, you better be able to provide it on behalf of your argument. I think I have some absolute objective empirical proof that god does not exist, or at least from a practical day to day importance kind of thing does not exist.>>>>>

I doubt you'll find absolute proof for the existence of God or the non-existence of God. Even our legal system doesn't require "absolute proof" when deciding a verdict.

Let's be intellectually honest.

<<BH: I am being intellectually honest. If you disagree please tell me who set the standard for intellectual honesty? Also, I don't care what the US legal system says as far as the existence of god is concerned or just what passes muster for "evidence" or "lack of evidence" in her courts.

Quote
You can't PROVE just WHICH God or Gods are there.

Based on your standard of "absolute objective empirical evidence", no. However, I believe the evidence does lean toward the bible [it's *] and Jesus [his deity, miracles and resurrection] being true. That’s what set's Christianity apart from other religions.

<<<BH: Show me your evidence then. I think the Bible is just another book written by men.>>>>>>

But, again... First things first: If you have a problem with the existence of God, start there before testing Christianity.

I'd have to ask: If there really is a God, who has more to lose, you or me? I know that's a harsh question, but let's do a gut-check here... I hope you’re right.

<<<BH: This is Pascal's wager. I have nothing to lose either way. I have purposely blasphemed the Holy Ghost in the past just to invalidate Pascal's Wager per see me.>>>>>>>>>

[Janine]

Silly.

To purposely blaspheme the Name of Someone whom you say does not exist.

I guess I can blaspheme against Barney now...

[webacus]

BH, sorry, I'm not making myself clear.

I'm saying there isn't absolute proof either way. There isn't absolute proof to prove or dis-prove God. I think we agree on that, right?

And I'm saying that I believe the evidence leans toward a "designer", a creator [God].

Sure it takes a step of faith: Where did this god come from? Who created him? Did he create himself?

I think it's a bigger step of faith to believe everything occured by chance.

[BH Manners]

Silly.

To purposely blaspheme the Name of Someone whom you say does not exist.

I guess I can blaspheme against Barney now...

Well?

Did I not invalidate Pascal's Wager though?



:p

[Davep]

Perhaps.

Now the challenge for you: take the same circle and provide absolute objective empirical evidence that there are not many gods there or perhaps there is one god that is not Yahweh but possibly Allah or some other deity. This is why I reject your model. You can't PROVE just WHICH God or Gods are there.

The point was not to prove or disprove God's existence. The point is if there is a possiblity of God or gods, then it would be a worthy pursuit to find him.

When the early explorers set out to find the "new lands" they left often times with only the "possibilty" of finding someplace new. How many people told them there isn't any new land etc etc. Yet pursued it still; and were told they were crazy to go and look.

The same is true for those who pursue God.

[Janine]

Yes. Amen.

[TIFF4175]

I do not have fancy research to back up what I believe. I simply have my faith in God. We are supposed to have faith in Him and trust in Him. I love Him and I trust Him completely. I pray to Him, and I have seen His power and His love in my life. I am sad and sorry for you that you do not know Him and that you do not believe He is with us. I will add you to my prayer list because I do pray that He touches your heart and opens your eyes before it is too late. Perhaps your friend suggesting this site is His way of reaching you.